The plant being sold as "Anthurium jenmanii" is actually Anthurium bonplandii!!

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by photopro, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    I was talking about the situation in Indonesia man and sure the situation on Indonesian people. And people here are talking about the Anthurium riot in Indonesia. Whatever you call it or identify it as scientist or a doctor. If it's thick, round firm leave with muscular leave thews it will called Jenmanii here, for thing you maybe called it really Jenmanii or blonpandii. If it's come to Indonesia, species or hybrids those will depend on the seller how to name it. Believe me, it will start with the word 'Jenmanii.... bla bla bla'. Just another Jenmanii. A pompous fools ?. Fine. The name is just a name. We have our version about the rares. The similar rare version as yours may be Reflexynervium, Superboom, Veitchii or Mancuneinse. I heard the information that my countrymen going to do a tissue ... to breed and multiply those speciments. Do this scare you as a rare plant lover ?. Is that the way you love a plant ?. It's because that there are just a few more in this world and there are just a a few people that have this speciments ??. In the next 16-20 years to come all of those hybrids are going to be species if we keep do the cross pollination among the best breeds until F8. Isn't it an enrichment ?.
    I love being here. To collect any information, the best ways to grow my own foliage Anthurium. I don't have any purpose to interfere or irritate people or more to be an arogant. I just wished to share any information I know about Indonesia as a native Indonesian in my very limited English. I will welcome you and other friends here if having any question about the Anthos situation in Indonesia. Fell free to email me private.
     
  2. rareplantlover

    rareplantlover Member

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    they can tissue culture these plant and everyone can own one- it is not losing the rarity of the plant that will make us stop loving them- but we like to know and call them by their proper name. the same way i like to call my children by their correct and individal names.
     
  3. rareplantlover

    rareplantlover Member

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    honestly- i have tons of hibiscus and bougainvilleas in my yard. they are just as beautiful and i do love them the same. i treat my rare plants better only because they did cost me alot more money and i had a hard time to acquire them. by the way wouldnt a correct id on a plant also help to find better care tips- as all anthuriums do not like the same growing conditions? if we wanted to be arrogant and pompous snobs we would stick to designer clothes and luxury cars, its just about putting the right name on the right plant.
     
  4. rareplantlover

    rareplantlover Member

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    at the same time some of these species are very hard to come by and extremely challanging to grow. if that is part of the name , shouldnt someone that spent many years and many attempts to do so- have the right to feel proud and accomplished by this?
     
  5. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    One would think so...I know I would

    Ed
     
  6. greenthumb7

    greenthumb7 Member

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    I agree with photopro and rareplantlover. I want my plants to be labeled correctly. In the case of many plants the wrong name will cause a dead plant because the culture requirements would be incorrect.
     
  7. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    My oh my, there are incredible numbers of hybrids here. Breeders love to make their own hybrids and give it their names creation. How are we Indonesians supposed to call our hybrids if we should using the international name ?. We are not going to bother Dr. Tom Croft to give it a botanical names right ?. Maybe in the next few years when the hybrids has become stable with its breeds, we may try to contact him. The point is most of us grow foliage Anthuriums not Andreanum. If I took a notice their grandparents could be blonpandii, hookerii, jenmanii, plowmanii or even watermaliansee (to give a touch of black on it). The culture is more or less to what our friend gypsytropicals suggest to you. Some of us add cattle waste as fertilizer to the culture. But some of us avoid since we know the culture may become acid.
    Folks, If I share u a beautiful local hybrids anthurium, will you refuse it just because you can find its botanical name ?. Will it be hard for you to label your plant because the name of the plant using Indonesia name ?.
     
  8. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    G'day blackbeauty....I'm pretty much your neighbour.
    I love hybrids and I love species, its just in most cases it is easier to find botanical information about species, than hybrids, although popular hybrids have good information also.
    I welcome the hybrids and love them also, and I love the species as well.
    I'm not big on A. andreanum too much either...
    Its hard enough, for me anyway, to identify an Anthurium or Philo species, let alone a hybrid???
    I am learning all the time...

    Ed
     
  9. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

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    Hi Everyone,
    OK, I got to weigh in on this too. Here's my two cents.
    I have several of this species, which and whatever it is, and Yes, there is a tremendous amount of variations in this plant. Many displaying a different 'personality' in it's appearance. These plants always set seed for me, without my manipulation, and even the seedlings display a variety of looks, but maintain the appearance of the mother plant with the purple new growth and thick ovate blades. Some plants will have petioles, and on some the petiole will be absent. Some have wide blades and some have thinner, longer blades, but still main the basic appearance of the species. I think this is one of the factors that I like so much about this plant.
    I also grow Platyceriums and many species of these Staghorn ferns also show differening appearances within the species and varieties. Collectors call them 'Cultivars' and although many are not hybrids, they do exhibit differing appearances. These Cultivars are often given names like 'Hula Hands', 'Blue Boy' or other discriptive names to destinguish them from others. More times that not, these plants are not man-made hybrids, but varietal clones from different species populations in the wild (possible wild hybrids?). It sounds like, in Indonesia, these Anthuriums in question are given Cv. names like blackbeauty has mentioned.
    I am always re-reading my past issues of 'Aroideana' (published by the International Aroid Society), and in the very first issue (vol.1, no.1) May 1978, there is an article by Simon Mayo, "Aroid-Hunting in Bahia, Brazil", and in this article referring to Anthurium affine he states; "During our trip I was able to study four widely separate populations and it was indeed interesting to see just how much the shape of the spadix and leaf varied within and between populations".
    I think this must happen with certain species, maybe with the wide spread species.
    I like to collect Anthuriums that are a little different from the norm and have three different looking A. warocqueanum, two very different appearing A. veitchii and numerous wild collected A. clarinerviums that are unique to one another, besides this certain 'popular bird'snest type' being discussed here.
    I like all Anthuriums. I don't care if it's a hybrid or a species, but I can appreciate the differences and they do have their place in my collection.
    It seems like several are worried about the correct name for cultural advise. It is great when you are able to pick up a named species, then find information writen relating to the exact plant. More times than not, this isn't the case. I know the frustration of having a species, unidentified and wondering what it is and what would be the best for it's survival. That's why this forum is so great.
    I think we are fortunate to have blackbeauty and others participate in this forum, and find everyones input very interesting. We all have this interest in common and can work together to educate ourselves.
    Blackbeauty, your English is good, I wish I had your abilities with Bahasa Indonesia.
    Thank you for educating us on the ways of the Indonesian Anthurium collector.
    Can you tell us more about your collection and how you grow your plants? I hear many in Indonesia grow in rice husks. Do you?
     
  10. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    [/QUOTE] I think we are fortunate to have blackbeauty and others participate in this forum, and find everyones input very interesting. We all have this interest in common and can work together to educate ourselves.
    Blackbeauty, your English is good, I wish I had your abilities with Bahasa Indonesia.
    Thank you for educating us on the ways of the Indonesian Anthurium collector.
    Can you tell us more about your collection and how you grow your plants? I hear many in Indonesia grow in rice husks. Do you?[/QUOTE]

    I could not believe how clever many of the Indonesians I met in my travels were .
    Some could speak fluent English , German , Dutch as well as the native language of the area [ usually not Bahasa indonesian ] My mothers second husband was a Dutchman who was born in Java . We ate Indonesian food nearly every day when I was staying with them In LA and when they shifted to Qld. I visited a few Orchid nurseries near Manado , but did not see many other Anthuriums apart from crystallinum .
     
  11. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Well said Michael!!!

    The key issue, I think, is to "work together to educate ourselves"

    Ed
     
  12. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    Damn right gentlemen !. *bows*
     
  13. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    Many thanks for sharing your knowledges. Well, too little to be called collection. Am not a collector (lol) just felt in love in these anthos auros in the last recent months during the booming in my country. I don't have nursery or a place like exoticrainforest. Those are Ilewelynii, two suspect plants to be black Anthos Auro (but it is just one that have shown its character, 15 cms lenght-3 cms widht), 2 hybrids (friend said it is a cross of plowmanii and hookerii) called neo hookerii, some called -in local names- Jenmanii Cobra, Burgundi, Red Eagle, and Black Beauty and a some andreanum. I'll share the pics in the next few days and so you guys may help me to identify what do you really call it in your Anthurium lang.
    For their culture I grow them in pieces hard wood charcoal and fern for the sake of porousity, drainage and evaporation. I pour water mixed with fertilizer (high N, low Phospate and Calium) once a week to the culture and spray the leafes. And just spray low dose fertilizer contains sitokinin hormon to plant in Wednesday or Thursday. And if the day is too hot, I spray the plants and just wet the surface of the culture. I spread out in the sun at about 0600-0700 am for an hour. It works on me but please do not hessitate for you guys to correct me whether I make mistake for this kind of treatment. I am going to replace my plastic pots to clay pots. Many thanks for this information. And those who still use the plastic pots, I suggest you to make holes around the pot. The root will love to have caress by wind.
    I think the problem possibly come the friends that live in four season countries. It never be a problem for me at all. The problem just come as I split my Ilewelynii. The upside grow better than below, roots are coming out and so does the bud. But I still got this headache when I observing the below part. And my 2 neo hokerii is in the relief process after the roots got rotten as I overdosed of the Auksin hormon and it was taken too long under sun. I cut the rotten roots and pray... And those have been 2 weeks placed in my bathroom near window.
    The culture we used to have in a pot are roasted rice husks, fern (chopped or dice, better boiled first), volcanic rough sand, hard wood charcoal (in little pieces and bigger pieces in bottom), pine bark, cattle waste (not the fresh ones). They choose their own mix variation. Can be all of them or just fern. But some people have a new idea to use adenium culture for their Anthurium. They said their Anthurium grows better than when they use orchid style culture.
    Believe me folks it's not a matter of species or hybrids it's all about "work together to educate ourselves". Have a great time.
     
  14. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    A very interesting soil mix you use Blackbeauty...

    Ed
     
  15. simonnagari

    simonnagari Member

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    hi, i have many plants because my mom very interesting with the plants, i have anthurium like wave of love, black pearl, many kinds of hookery,jungle bass, flower anthurium, etc, I love anthurium and want to know anthurium from your country too, i appreciate if you can send me an email, thanks
     
  16. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    I forgot the coco peat. Most people use coco peat. But I don't. I think it will make the soil get soggy.
     
  17. simonnagari

    simonnagari Member

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    I think we are fortunate to have blackbeauty and others participate in this forum, and find everyones input very interesting. We all have this interest in common and can work together to educate ourselves.
    Blackbeauty, your English is good, I wish I had your abilities with Bahasa Indonesia.
    Thank you for educating us on the ways of the Indonesian Anthurium collector.
    Can you tell us more about your collection and how you grow your plants? I hear many in Indonesia grow in rice husks. Do you?[/QUOTE]

    I could not believe how clever many of the Indonesians I met in my travels were .
    Some could speak fluent English , German , Dutch as well as the native language of the area [ usually not Bahasa indonesian ] My mothers second husband was a Dutchman who was born in Java . We ate Indonesian food nearly every day when I was staying with them In LA and when they shifted to Qld. I visited a few Orchid nurseries near Manado , but did not see many other Anthuriums apart from crystallinum .[/QUOTE]

    hello friend, I can not speak english well (mung ngratul-gratul) but I want to share with others in this world because it can make me happy, and supprised for me read your thread in this forum, I hope we can talk more (ngomong opo wae gelem)
     
  18. gypsytropicals

    gypsytropicals Active Member

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    Hi Friends,

    Wow, how interesting! I like hearing the different ingredients blackbeauty uses for a potting mix. I never considered using some of these items, but can see how they would work well.

    We should all consider our potting mix. The roots really are the corner stone to a well grown and thriving plant. Roots should also be your indicator to what your plant's needs are. No new roots or brown, soft roots and a wobbly plant is an indication that you need to investigate the problem and consider a soil change.
    Remember, most of the Anthurium species are epiphytes and prefer a well drained soil with a lot of air exchange. One that maintains moisture, but stays light. I never use a mix that compacts and becomes heavy and soggy. Usually 'basic' potting soils that are a peat moss base become too heavy and soggy.
    In the wild many Anthuriums' roots travel away from the plant and search for crevasses in rocks or trees that have become filled and layered with falling leaves, forest debris and animal droppings. Of course there are frequent rain showers in these jungles and the water quickly drains away from these areas, but the humidity and moisture remains.
    Thinking about how Anthuriums grow you can still use a peat moss mix, but you will need to add other things to the mix to get the proper air exchange.
    Try adding some orchid bark(pre-soaked), large sponge rock, lava rock, tree fern fiber, hardwood charcoal or what ever else is available in your part of the world, and mixing up a batch, and like blackbeauty says, "use all or only one", but add enough so that the peat moss is a minor part of the mix or less than 50%. Grab a handfull and squeeze, if it falls apart when you open your hand it's a good mix.

    I like to use different soil mixes for different Anthuriums, and depending on what condition the plant is in.

    For a plant that is newly imported with only few leaves and poor roots, or a plant that has had a cultural problem and has lost most of it's roots, I use a mixture of finely screened or chopped New Zealand sphagnum moss.
    To 2 parts screened NZ moss I add 1 part large size #3 sponge rock and 1/2 part finely crushed hardwood charcoal. This mixture is very light and fluffy, and doesn't pack down. I then repot the weaken plant into this mixture, into a clay pot that has a few charcoal chunks in the bottom of the drainage hole. Moisten and place in a low light area, and keep moist. Usually new roots will quickly develop and within a month or so, you should have a revived plant beginning to push new growth. I believe the sphagnum moss has a natural fungicide that is beneficial.

    This treatment has worked so well for me that I am happy to share my 'recipe'.
     
  19. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

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    Great advice, gypsytropicals...

    I really hadn't gone into my mix too much, but, after reading this thread, I'm getting into it. I know alot of Anth's are epiphytes and I should replicate that a little bit more in my mix....

    Ed
     
  20. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

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    Yup, I am also happy to got your recipe. My friend used to placed a poor plant into a clear plastic bag and tie it and let the air only circulate into the plastic bag. He said it is to avoid too much evaporation. Which it is not good for an ill plant. I did these both for mine. Your recipe and his. Thanks for the low light information.
     
  21. greenthumb7

    greenthumb7 Member

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    Did any of you catch the Garden Rebel radio show yesterday? Vince Sims interviewed photopro on National radio, and with good reason. Few are as specie knowledgable as he is, and his research reputation is impeccable. The exoticrainforest-tropical-plant-discussion-group on google groups convinced photopro to put Vince Sims comments on his home page at ExoticRainforest.com. Check it out. He's the real deal. You can hear the show any Sunday at www.wdbo.com or any of the nationally syndicated stations of the Radio America Network also on Sunday mornings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  22. idlehand

    idlehand Member

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    we must make it clear..

    the point is 'false tagging' not 'the importance of taxonomy'.

    the importance of taxonomy is private right. everyone should have their own like and dislike. if someone just like the beautifullness of the plant and do not give a care about its origin and bla bla bla..go ahead. that's your right.

    people take it as a hobby,rite?

    ---

    but, false tagging is and should be important!

    for some people..it is okay to buy imitation one. regardless some 'unimportant' differences..

    and some people may dont care about the name as long as it 'sounds' money.

    now, can we think about the effect?

    are we okay if our child would call our 'BMW' with 'cadillac'?are we okay if someone who really care about the species of their plant buy the wrong plant because the seller gave the wrong tag?

    more important, truth is truth, regardless how many part of our life are affected..

    ----

    fyi,the second one happened in my country-Indonesia *LOL (*i guess, from my english, everyone just guessed it)



    Thanks
     
  23. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Interesting observation. I received a great deal of flack after posting Dr. Croat's information. But after discussions with both Dr. Croat, botanist David Scherberich in France, naturalist Joep Moonen in French Guiana and other knowledgeable collectors the information I originally posted has proven correct.

    I do not believe any of the outstanding growers who regularly provide plants to the plant collection trade purposely sold a plant using the wrong name! From conversations with Denis Rotolante who is the president of the International Aroid Society it became clear the plant that was commonly being sold as Anthurium jenmanii was mis-tagged at an IAS International Aroid Show in Miami, FL. At that time several people realized the plant tagged "Anthurium jenmanii" was actually Anthurium bonplandii guayanum. But once the plant was sold the name began to stick. Similar things have happened with plants commonly sold as Anthurium hookeri. Many people in the United States and Indonesia sell a plant that produces red berries and tag it "Anthurium hookeri". The true Anthurium hookeri produces berries that are white. Denis explained a great number of plants sold by nurseries in South Florida as "Anthurium hookeri" are not that species! Instead, they are hybrids. It appears "Anthurium hookeri" has become a catch all name for any Anthurium when a name is not known.

    To a lot of collectors the name on the tag is unimportant. But to many others, finding the correct name of each specimen in a collection becomes a passion. I would have to count myself in the latter group. Any collector will simply have to decide for themselves if they just love the shape of the plant or they truly want to know the scientific data (and name) of the species. Just this morning I received a large group of photos from a grower in Australia. He was certain he was growing some of the plants discussed in this group. Based solely on a single photograph, I would doubt many were the the species he had been lead to believe. But if he is happy using those names, more power to him!

    The problem becomes more serious when evidence is available that the name on a tag is wrong becomes readily available. Such is the case with Anthurium hookeri. If a serious grower, after reading the scientific description, continues to sell a plant with the wrong name...........then I personally have a problem. Again, most people just like the shape of a specimen's leaf blades. But it would be nice if they actually had the correct species name on the tag! As a result of this one, I thought for sure the Indonesian Army would arrive in my driveway any day! You would not believe all the nasty mail I received as a result of that post! But after a great deal of reading discussion I now receive quite a few letters from your countrymen thanking me for pointing out the true identities of some of the many species so loved in your country and many other places around the world.

    So call them what you wish. The fact remains, if you want to know the true name of a plant you've got to read the scientific description and compare that data to the specimens in your collection.
     
  24. idlehand

    idlehand Member

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    count me in to the second goup too *LOL




    Thanks
     
  25. idlehand

    idlehand Member

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    for hybrid..i suggest we just call it 'anthurium hybrid'. except we know at least one of the parent..



    Thanks
     

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