I have a question on the taxonomy of a tree that I purchased in 1995. The name the tree was purchased under was 'AO SHIME NO UCHI'. One of the first books that I bought was 'MAPLES OF THE WORLD' by D.M. van GELDREN, et al. IN this book the tree wass directed to 'SHINOBUGA OKA', which the tree lived under for years. I have recently started to compie a list of descriptions for my colection of maples. This has caused many problems as to what the name is. Four books listed beow say 'SHINOBUGA OKA' is listed under subspecies PALMATUM. The latest book that was purchased was 'BOOK FOR MAPLES' by MASAYOSHI YANO. This book lists the tree as 'SHIME NO UCHI', subspecies AMOENUM. The picture shown is very close to what the tree is. The following is a list of referances that I have used to confuse me. I will attach a picture of the tree taken in October 2005 shortly. Any help would be greatly appreciated and hope this is the proper format for citing referances. MAPLES OF THE WORLD, D.M.van GELDREN, P.C. dE JONG, H.J. OTERDOOM; 1994 Pg 99, TAXONOMIC SYNOPSIS (FOR PALMATUM & AMOENUM). Pg 117 - 119, DESCRIPTION OF SUBSPECIES PALMATUM. Pg 116, DESCRIPTION OF SUBSPECIES AMOENUM. PG 271, GROUP 5a DESCRIPTION. Pg 272, 'AKA SHIME NO UCHI'. RED TYPE AND IN GROUP 5b Pg 273, 'AO SHIME NO UCHI'. Pg 289, 'LINEARIOBUM'. Pg 300, 'SHIME NO UCHI'. Pg 300 - 301, 'SHINOBUGA OKA' -------------------------------------- MAPLES FOR GARDENS, C.J. van GELDREN & D.M. van GELDREN; 1999 Pg 98, 'AKA SHIME NO UCHI'. RED TYPE AND IN GROUP 5b Pg 100, 'AO MESHIME NO UCHI'. See picture on this page. Pg 184, 'SHINOBU GA OKA'. See picture on this page. -------------------------------------- JAPANESE MAPLES, SECOND EDITION, J.D.VERTREES; 1978 Pg 12, PICTURE OF THE SPECIES LEAVES Pg 98, 'SHIME NO UCHI'. Red type. See picture on this page. Pg 99, 'SHINOBUGA OKA'. See picture on this page. -------------------------------------- JAPANESE MAPLES, THIRD EDITION, J.D. VERTREES, REVISED, PETER GREGORY; 2001 Pg 210, 'SHIME-NO-UCHI'. Red type. See picture on this page. Pg 211, 'SHINOBUGA OKA'. See picture on this page. ------------------------------------- BOOK FOR MAPLES, MASAYOSHI YANO; 2003 Pg 274, ACER AMOENUM 'SHIME(N) NO UCHI', mispelled per errata. Notice ssp.amoenum. See picture on this page. Very close to spring color. pg 277, ACER AMOENUM 'SHINOBU GA OKA', Red type. See picture on this page. Notice ssp. amoenum.
Excellent job doing your research. As with much taxonomy, that of the Acer palmatum linearlobum varieities is quite confusing and it becomes a matter of what degree we separate the leaf shapes, leaf shapes at different stages, tendency to produce atypical palmate foliage, etc. The there is a distinction between Shinobuga oka and Shime no uchi. That is a leaf form/ shape distinction as they have similar growth habits. There is also a distinction between Ao shime no uchi and Shime no uchi but you can call them froms of the same variety. 'Ao' means GREEN. That should help you a great deal. So, Ao shime no uchi should be the more green or all green form of Shime no uchi and Shime no uchi, as some of the book authors indicated is a red form. Not red in that is will be predominantly red all of the time, but the leaf will have red in it at certain times of the year. You might also read this thread to assist in your ID. http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=10504&highlight=shime+uchi How old is that plant? When was it last repotted, rootpruned? To have a linearlobum as a bonsai can make for a difficult ID as the effects of its culture and have dramatic effects on its leaf size and shape.
Sorry for the delay in replying. I researched the link that you sent. This tree is definetly not a red type. It has been constently green since I bought it in 1995. At that time they said the tree was about 2 years old. The tree was repotted two years ago and is scheduled for a drastic cut in the spring. I do not keep the trees in "show shape" all the time. They are allowed to grow out and then are cut back. As to the size of the leaf I do not see a major difference unless they were reduced on purpose. The linearilobums are not reduced. The color of the tree is as shown except the spring color is a lighter green. The fall color is a yellow-orange.
Any chance you can elaborate on the source of the tree? As for the SIZE, it would be more accurate if we focus on leaf shape. If you look at the photo that is posted you will see two very distinct leaf forms. I will classify the effect as different leaf forms as they are mature leaves and thereby they are not appearingly in active growth. If you look at the leaves on the top of the plant and the ones on the outside of the plant you will see a more palmate leaf. Actually, some of the leaves are quite distant from a linearlobum leaf. In the interior of the tree, especially near the middle and bottom, you will see the more linear, narrow lobed, leaves. What I assume from this is that the younger the wood, the greater the likelihood of a plamate leaf. This can also be a result of the time of year the leaf was produced. Spring growth might be palmate and summer growth more linear or the other way around. In figuring out what tree this might be will reqire that you provide the leaf form or type transitions and any other details about color that you might know. Are you sure there is never any red in the tree spring or fall. Sometimes predominantly yellow-orange leaves can show red flecking in the fall? Sometimes we do not see the same color in ever year. If you are not sure of these things and really want to know what the tree might be, you might be best not to whack it back and let it go for one more season. Any repotting and severe cutting will likely set back your positive ID of this plant for a couple of years. It is seems to be showing some ideal or normal gowth characteristics now. If you are up for it, please continue to provide whatever deails you have in the study of this plant. More PICTURES??
I bought the tree at a convention in Pennsylvania in 1995. If my memory serves me right most of the vendors were from around Ohio and Pennsylvania. I can't remember the vendor. At that time I thought maples only had one name. Just looked at the root ball, I may be able to get away not repotting this year and letting it won't hurt. Will have to keep an eye on it. will attach a photo from April 2003. Yes it does look like the one already posted. Over the weekend I wil try to find more pictures, especially the first flush. It is bright green. The only Pinkish color is on the seeds, very similar to the picture in 'Maples for gardens' page 184.
Why is this thread still in the Plant Names and Taxonomy forum and not firmly placed in the Maple forum? There are at least three issues involved here: (1) we can see a travesty with the spellings of these Maples, (2) we do indeed have a classification issue and (3) we have a what is the right name based on its identity for this Maple issue. The common name spellings is the one subject it is best that I do not comment too much on as all I have to ask is what were the common names of the Maples as cited above when they came in from Japan and kick back with an incredulous smirk and see if any of you knows that answer without guessing. Are Ao shime no uchi and Shime no uchi the same plant? The classification issue for the linearilobums, their forms and varieties requires the taxonomist to know how these plants in the linearilobum/scolopendrifiolium group differ from one another in a growing season. This will be tough as the educational and scientific types have to either have been around these plants for a while or were in constant contact with someone that has grown these Maples for a long while to better understand how they differ. We do have some unique variables for leaf shapes at work with these Maples for us to play with. The books are not going to help much herein as to be in the ballpark now we have to have some applied knowledge of these plants. The only question I have and it will apply as we better learn these plants in this group series is what do we call the scolopendrifolium type Maples having 7 or 9 lobes instead of 5 lobes? What name for classification purposes do we call them as we will see Maples in this series with mostly 5 lobes but have some leaves with 7 lobes, a Maple or two that have 7 lobes but can have some lobes in 9's and then there is a Maple that has mainly 9 lobes but can have some 7's. We cannot classify this Maple yet until we know what its typical physical characteristics and coloration in a growing season are and where did it come from. We have to either know this Maple right off or start with the assumption that we do not know it and build on what we do know. Jim
As well as the color changes of this maple, it will be important that we know how the leaves develop in shape. When we address the linearlobum varieties, it seems the very few will be true linearlobum. Leaves on these plants can take on all sorts of growth states and cycles. There can be atypical leaves of both palmate and large-lobe linear type. Leaves can start out oversized and atypical and size down in the growing season and they can also show opposit tendencies. Addtionaly, growth under stress becomes important as we would like to know what kind of leaf this plat will throw out. We will also want to know what growth on new vigorous chutes will look like so that we can have yet another tool to dissect this bunch. The leaves at the top of this mystery plant, being more palmate, are equally as important as the "normal" linear leaves in the middle and the lower part of the plant. I think this point is quite useful for us, so I dug around in my photo archives and dug up three different linearlobums that I grow. I will only say that the first plant is Koto no ito. The other two, while they have names, are not named correctly. The last plant is VERY young and I only show it to illiustrate the leaf-shape differences. I would second Jim to see this thread moved back in to the maple fourm where it belongs.
mr. shep. I took time to look up your reference to 'Linearilobum/Scolopendrifiolum' group. Could not find any reference to that group as stated. I did find references to the 'Linearilobum' group. If it is possible please direct me to where I can find this information. As to your ...."assumption that we do not know it and build on what we do know", it sounds like a god idea. mjh1676. As you say there are many things that effect the growth of plants. The simple fact of the west coast verses the east coast with our sometimes severe cold weather. I will confuse the issue a little more. To my untrained eye I have noticed the leaf shape of all three supspecies during the course of a year. All the points that have been brought out are extremely valid. Where do I go from here. Is there an 'authority' that sets the rules? A set of procedure that has to be followed? A registery format that should be followed? I am not schooled in horticulture or am I a nursery person. I only try to grow little trees. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Nobody (can I call you something else?), You are on the right track. Unfortunately the information you seek, a key of sorts, does not exist. The mainstream of modern maple texts and references have never taken this approach. To even consider this sort of idea, one would have to be familiar with all of the plants in a give group and grow them side by side or be in close enough proximity to someone growing them to view them in all growth phases and seasons. For this reason, it has been impractical for a book author to try to differientiate a group like the green linearlobums when it is much easier to lump them. How could anyone ever publish a text if they were trying to make a linearlobum identification key? What might be of great value someday is a maple text devoted just to the one group. Maybe a boxed set--we could then get into the nuts and bolts of things. What we have now is simply descriptions and photos--one snapshot of a tree in a book with a marginal description. It is hard to get very far. In the very old Japanese texts I get the impression that a taxonomy key might have been used to identify some maples within groups, but where one would find that sort of thing or if it exists for linearlobums, I cannot say. I think we would all be more successful with our maples if we could begin with the assumption that we do not know, throw away the name tag, and study the plant. As you can see by the lack of response to this thread, we are WAY out there. I myself am a collector and will be honest, I had little more idea than you about your plant to start this journey. But with some study, we are beginning to see what it is not. Take Jim's advice and look in the 2nd edition. There you will quickly be able to exclude Ao shime no uchi and Shinobuga oka. What I think is happening is that the predominance of palmate shaped leaves is distracting from the parentage of the tree. Take some time to look at the linear-lobed leaves near the back middle of the tree and then try to match those with a known variety. The second edition will help you here also. What people don't realize is that this excerise can help us to know the entire group of plants even though we are trying to identify one tree. I have been looking at the books and the online galleries, and in doing so, will better be prepared to recognize these trees when I see them. It is not a matter of having the answer as much as it is knowing the pieces of the puzzle. Which plants have what shaped leaves when, how are the lobes held, what is the shape of the lobes, seasonal colors, petiole color, bark color. I try to help you in hopes of helping myself. It is very possible one of the plants I pictured above is very similar to your tree. It is young now, but I hope that I am preparing myself to know it later. I know it all sounds too serious to be about "a tree", but then again, it is as important to know the tree as it is to know the name. What business do people have introducing new varities when they have no idea what separates the old. If we mix them up, can we separate them back out? The point here is that it is great you want to find out about your plant, and that you have done so much research to start. While I am now certain it is important to see what it looks like in the spring, I am also interested to see how it responds when you cut it back and repot it. For its current state in that pot, it has far too many palmate leaves. Do you give it much nitrogen? it doesn't look like nitrogen-rich growth, but I have to ask. Do these pictures remind you of the tree at all in the spring?
I took time to look up your reference to 'Linearilobum/ Scolopendrifiolum' group. Could not find any reference to that group as stated. I did find references to the 'Linearilobum' group. If it is possible please direct me to where I can find this information. Since you referenced the Vertrees second edition Japanese Maples book I am assuming you have it. If you look on page 97 you will see a photo of 'Scolopendrifolium'. Look at the leaves closely and notice the cup shape to the lobes. So what, someone may say, other linearilobums have cupped shaped leaves? Yes, that is true but not all of their leaves have the cupped shaped lobes, whereas in 'Scolopendrifolium' all the lobes are cupped shaped. Then notice how the smaller lobes are shaped and then look at the tips of all the lobes. See how the lobes start out from the palm (center) of the leaf and then notice about 2/3 the distance of the length of the lobe and what do you see? You see a noticeable slendering in the width of the lobe. That slendering alone makes this form different from all the rest of the linearilobums. Another thing worthy of mentioning with the lobes is that the tips of the lobes generally do not ever nod but instead the tips are held out and in many cases will be held erect in contrast to most of the linearilobums. The lobes themselves never nod as well in comparison. There are two forms of the green leafed 'Scolopendrifolium' that I know of. Aside from this plant being a cultivar this Maple was considered in Japan to be a variety by some people. I learned scolopendrifolium to be a variety as there is more than one plant in the group and can be written out linearilobum var. scolopendrifolium or just scolopendrifolium. For years people have lumped the linearilobums and the scolopendrifoliums in together to separate them out as a grouping like we do with the dissectums, the dwarfs and the deeply divideds from the palmate leaf group. The lumping of the linearilobum/scolopendrifolium group had precedence in Japan and Mr. Vertrees used that same basic grouping in his book. Jim
The confusion started from the moment you bought this plant. What I appreciate is that you've spent some time wondering what this Maple is when so many other people just do not seem to care about what Maples they have and let the name tag or the person that sold them the plant be the resident Maple expert for them. Part of the reason why mjh has shown interest in your Maple is because he may have the same Maple as yours but his plant is younger than yours is, so he needs to see the similarities in your plant versus his to better know if his plant is right for the name that he purchased it as being. When we add into the mix forms of Maples and include recently named seedlings we are up against it as then we have to rely on what the original plant that came in from Japan looks like even when that plant is no longer being sold or is sold by the wrong name. The latter may apply to your Maple. So my main question for you is what do you really want from all of this. Do you want a clarification on the classification of the linear lobed and scolopendrifolium Maples or do you really want to know what Maple you have? To make this thread educational we need to cover both elements and apply the why to what your Maple is in comparison to others. The beginnings of the why can start with this quick question. When you look on page 99 of the Vertrees second edition book and see 'Shinobuga oka', do you see red petioles on your Maple and if the answer is yes, then when do you see them, at what stages of the growing season are the petioles red in color? I know the original plant that came in from Japan as 'Shinobuga oka' so I have an advantage that others simply do not have. I also know who owned the plant as pictured on page 99 and yes, what we see just in that one glimpse in time with that photo does give a reasonable account of how that Maple will look like in mid to late Spring and to an extent even early to mid Summer when grown in certain areas. The photo depicts what I should see when I go up to Oregon and look in a nursery and I have seen this Maple for sale in a couple of Oregon nurseries but only a couple. There are other nurseries that claim to have this Maple for sale but it is not that plant. I understand better than most why you have had a few problems with your Maple but to solve the mystery will require input from you on your Maple, what you know of it so we can help others along the way that have an interest in learning Maples, even helping others that have shown they do not deserve to know this stuff yet, as it will mean nothing to some of them, as they will continue on collecting and selling Maples wrongly named no matter what. It is your choice where we go with this thread and some of the controversial issues therein. Do you want to make this thread educational or would you prefer just to have me send you a private message and tell you what your Maple is? Should we get into botanical terms I would indeed appreciate others that know the correct terms to come in and tell us. When we get into cupped shaped leaves, my simple terms that we used in the nursery may not help much when the correct term may be, for example, recurved leaves instead. The scolo part of scolopendrifolium equation may be tougher for us to deal with as a part of me wants to think that scolo is a shortened term for a longer word but I cannot be sure of that. Jim
The problem I have with your Maple is that for a bonsai plant the leaves are too large. This is what has me a little confused as for the Maple you have the leaves should scale down in size as the plant gets older in years. With you having this Maple for 10 years in comparison to other bonsai plants I've seen of your Maple it makes me think your plant is a seedling selection of the Maple I know. The palmatum versus amoenum issue can be explained but there is some controversy that will develop as the Europeans and some others have a different view on this than some of the old guard Japanese had. The problem area is that people choose to cite Koidzumi when it is convenient for them, yet do not know what all is written in his book and the later accompanying manuscript for a journal article all because they have never seen a copy of either. People have been using someone else's research of this book since the day it was first translated into English from the old kanji whereby some of the symbols could not be interpreted, even by University professors in Japan. The dilemma is that a second person account may indeed differ in the translation than a translation will that was done by committee. What we see more often than not is the committee interpretation that Universities here and elsewhere have been using since the late 50's. Koidzumi did lay out some of the classification for us but we do not see the entire classification shown in our books but in one book in particular we see a wishful thinking used instead to lump certain Maples into a specific group but that grouping was not spelled out in writing by Koidzumi. The term palmatipartitum for classification purposes applies to the linearilobums that produce palmate and some that produce deeply divided leaves also along with the linear lobes. The palmate leaves might be seen as the first flush of new growth in the Spring and with the next flush of new growth produce linear lobed leaves. Some Maples can throw out both palmate shaped leaves and linear lobed leaves in their Spring growth and also in the late Spring and Summer growth. I am just trying to give a general idea here as when we get into cultivars we can break this down by which lineariloums produce the palmate shaped leaves and when they produce them. Some linear lobed Maples do not produce palmate shaped leaves at any time of the growing season and technically these would be classed differently. To answer your basic question of are the linearilobums an Acer palmatum or an Acer amoenum, they are Acer amoenum with an asterisk, referring to palmatipartitum, as the majority of the linear lobed Maples produce a palmate shaped leaf or a series of palmate shaped leaves during the growing season. This is not to be confused with the enlarged or vigorous linear lobed leaves we can see with some of the other linear lobed Maples. There is big difference in what is a palmate shaped leaf and what is a vigorous linear lobed leaf but the tougher aspect to know is the difference between a deeply divided (palmate) leaf and the vigorous linear lobed leaf and this also will determine if the Maple is a palmatipartitum or if the Maple is a straight linearilobum instead. Let me get you this far before I take it to the next level as the whole linearilobum group can be broken down into a fourth classification along with scolopendrifolium. There is actually a fifth classification that came under consideration years ago that can also apply so it depends on who really wants what when we break these plants down into their respective classes but we can do it based on when a linear lobed Maple does what with the leaves as all we need to know are leaf shapes and leaf sizes for the classifications or varieities or sub-groupings in linearilobum to have all of this come together for us. Some people will balk at these because they have not spent oodles of time studying the growth habits of these Maples. This is where it becomes imperative to know the correct name of the Maple we are researching and we will have some disagreement here even though there should not be much of any if we know who received the original plants when they came in from Japan. If we know of the correct sourcing of these plants there should not be much disagreement on what is going on with the Maple as it grows but we can “split hairs” later on what to do for these plants in order to class them based on their leaf characteristics. Now we are into the acquired and the applied knowledge of the plant itself and how it compares to other similar linear lobed Maples. Jim
The reason for the lack of response is that everyone is asking the same question. But they would like an instant answer. I did look at the 2nd edition and it says 'ao shimeno uchi' is a synonym of 'shinobuga oka'. But on page 98, 'shime no uchi' is the red type. Now to add to the confusion. 'Book for Maples', page 274 says 'shime no uchi' is green and page 274 says 'shinobuga oka' is red. Both trees are listed ssp. amnoeum. My tree spent a majority of the summer undershade. This year the fertiizer was a light miracle grow mix of one tablespoon to a gallon of water. The picture on the right (imf 2116_1_1.jpg is close, but I am not sure. If you look at the picture on page 274 you will see a very close spring color. I am looking for the earlier pictures of this tree. When there found I will show them. I buy maples and other trees by how they are described in the books and catalogs. It is frustrating to send for a tree and have something else show up. Especially since it takes a year or so to find out. Not all trees the authors describe are suitabe for bonsai even though they are slow growing or dwarf. What do I really want to know? What is the name of the tree? What is its growth habit? What is its spring color? What is the fall color? Will it make a good bonsai? Where can I get another one? I have almost a hundred maple questions. Do I want clarification on the classifications? of course. I would like this thread and many others threads to be educational. The more I can learn the better prepared I should be. I am going to look into the suggestions that have been made to see if I can logically track this years growth. Tom
Tom, you are not part of the controversy. What you've done so far is address an issue you've had with your Maple that has other implications that involve both the past and the present in Maples. None of the spelling problems are your fault, some of those spellings were done by design to encourage people to think that some of the Maples are more than one plant and hope that people that bought each of the spelled names would not know they are supposed to be the same plant. The classification of where the linearilobum group stands such as palmatum and amoenum has been in doubt for a while with some people. Okay, that can be dealt with as they are all amoenum, even the few cascading forms of the linearilobums as well. The differences of these plants from web site photos and photos from the books that we see do not match up in many cases for the name of Maple that others are calling it. When we see a photo in the book of a Maple or in a well known web site it almost requires us to know when the photo was taken, at what stage of growth and development was the Maple depicted. The time element should be pointed out to us. That way when we see a green Maple with red leaves or red in the leaves then we do not have some backtracking to do in order to know can this Maple turn red like that or does this Maple turn those colors in the Fall only? Book authors do not tell us this stuff so we have to learn to know the Maple and when it does what, so by that photo we see we can know when the Maple was captured either on film for the books or through digital means for web sites. What I wrote about palmatipartitum was to show how it applies to the linear lobed Maples. What we have in the groups is: (1) a majority of the linear lobed Maples produce a palmate leaf at some time during the growing season, some Maples will throw out a deeply divided leaf instead or palmate shaped leaves also that are considered to be palmatipartitum as well. (2) some of the linear lobed Maples will produce enlarged and vigorous linear lobed leaves at some time during the growing season. (3) some of the linear lobed Maples only produce slightly larger, not vigorous linear lobed leaves, in the Spring than what their normal growth will be during a growing season. (4) some of the linear lobed Maples are considered to be the scolopendrifoliums and (5) at one time there was thought that the old ribbonleaf plants with standard sized petioles as opposed to the ribbonleafs with the super short petioles such as ‘Koshimino’ and ‘Hagoromo’ and their respective forms, which are unusual feature Maples instead (now some of those forms of ‘Koshimino’ and ‘Hagoromo’ have been recently named and are not ribbonleafs and never were as I used these as examples only in concert with their super short petioles), were also a linear lobed Maple. So there are the five groups that I referenced yesterday. The taxonomists and the botanists can figure out what to do with the groups but it will require them to know which Maples do what in a growing season and when do they make their leaf changes. As we can tell from the books alone people just do not know what these plants do in a growing season so the people above will need some help to sort out a means of a method to classify these plants. I learned all of the non vigorous leaf producing, usually in just the early Spring growth but some of these Maples can produce the enlarged leaves throughout the growing season, linear lobed Maples are varieties of the straight, as we called it, linearilobum Maples. Thus, we can have linearilobum var. scolopendrifolium and linearilobum var. palmatipartitum as they were indeed suggested by people in the past that knew these Maples, knew how they were different and also knew when they were different from the rest of the Maples in the five groups. None of that written yesterday and this above concerns you, as this and that is for the higher ups to give them a heads up. What does concern you is that palmatipartitum applies to your Maple by virtue of the shapes of the leaves we see on your plant. I asked a question for others to chime in on as that question has pertinence here. Are ‘Ao shime no uchi’ and ‘Shime no uchi’ the same plant and if not how are they different from each other? There was a form of ‘Ao shime no uchi’ that later became named ‘Ao meshime no uchi’, how do these Maples differ from one another? Back to your Maple, your plant is known whether it is a seedling or not to exist in at least five other forms. All but one of the forms have one thing in common in that there is a high percentage of palmate shaped leaves produced in the Spring. Two of the forms will produce palmate leaves in the Spring and for the rest of the year will not produce any more palmate shaped leaves, one form will produce palmate shaped leaves in the Spring, have the new flush of new growth be linear lobed and from then on not produce any more palmate shaped leaves until the late Summer growth. One of the forms will produce palmate shaped leaves in the Spring and later on can produce palmate shaped leaves along with the linear lobed leaves almost throughout the entire growing season. This is the form of this Maple that originally came in from Japan. This is also the form that is closest to your Maple. If you were to look at various web sites you can see examples of all of the forms of this Maple including the form that was selected out in Oregon that produced enlarged or vigorous linear lobed leaves in the Spring and then produces for the rest of the year the smaller, scaled down in size linear lobed leaves until the late Summer growth when some of the leaves may be the enlarged linear lobed shaped leaves again. Some areas do not see the second round of vigorous leaves in late Summer on this Maple as cooler areas do not have as long a growing season as us or have as warm a late Summer/early Fall as we have when our Fall can in many years last longer in days than our Winters do here. The clue I've given you is that your Maple exists as one of five forms. The other forms of this Maple including the Oregon form (group 2 from earlier above) have in recent years been named in Japan. All you ever needed was someone to point you in the right direction. With a little time doing homework you can figure out what your Maple is online without my having to come right out and tell you the name of it. Jim
With this last post the lights finally went on. You were speaking of Vertrees groups and I was hearing van Gelderns groups. Time to start at the top and read everything all over again using the right book. I will let you know how I make out in a couple of days.