Hey all, I know there is already a thread in here about Tamukeyama leaves turning green, but the reply does not apply to my situation. My tree receives full sun for the majority of the day, is well watered and otherwise appears to be healthy but it's leaves are turning green. There is new growth towards the top which is still deep purple / crimson, but the established leaves are either nearly all bright green or are working towards that. Any suggestions? Like I said, it has full morning sun, at least two or three hours of afternoon sun, gets water around twice a week and appears to be healthy. Thanks in advance.
stubbs only a few cultivar of the japanese maple remain purple in summer..... in my aceretum only fire glow remain total purple leaves....
A true Tamukeyama should stay purple in full sun at this time of the year. Where did you buy your plant? Gomero
Alex I have a palmatum seedling selection (10 years old now) which remains red/purple all summer in deep shade, would you like a scion? Gomero
I have a problem with a Tamukeyama's leaves turning "bright green". My T has red new growth with established leaves "bronzing" to darkish green in the center with brownish red margins but nothing remotely "bright green".
@Gomero: Purchased from a local Farm and Garden center, Roxbury Farm and Garden Center, Fredericksburg VA. @Katsura: I guess I should have been more descriptive in my color characterization. Mine also has new growth that is red, the established growth is a green that is darker than normal lawn grass with some deep red on the stems and edges of the leaves. Does that help at all?
@katsura: Is your tree healthy? And do you know what causes the tree to turn green? I really want to know, as I love these trees, have wanted one for years and now that I finally get one I want to make sure I don't harm it. I have attached a couple of photos of mine, still a little fellow, but maybe it will help to determine if anything is wrong with it. Please note that this pictures were taken at around 3:30 Eastern time, still receiving full daylight.
Stubbs, your T looks healthy to me with all that new growth. I see no sun burn, I see a nice umbrella canopy forming. How long have you had this tree? I ask because trees take time to acclimatize. Yours is greener than mine, but that may well change with time.
That doesn't look like the tamukeyama I am familiar with...I would guess that it has gotten mixed up somewhere down the line. In fact there are two distinct forms in the nursery I work at as we speak. Tamukeyama has been around for 300 years after all. True tamukeyama should be a bit thinner in the lobes I think...and it should be much more of a purple and dark green coloration. The tree shown is what I would consider to have a rubrum coloration rather than an atropurpureum coloration. Extreme stress could possibly cause some change in coloration, but I wouldn't expect the lobes to be shaped like that.
@katsura: We have only had it since around March, I do not know how long it was at the nursery. Is yours as green as mine?
@mattfowler: Thanks for the reply, I have absolutely no knowledge of the differences in Japanese Maples. In your opinion, based off the photos, would you say the tree still looks healthy if it is the type of tree you mentioned? Not that concerned about the type of tree, its just so pretty and I really do not want to lose it. I think that it is still healthy, but I am not a "gardener" by any stretch of the imagination.
Stubbs, your tree looks very healthy to me in the pictures as I have said. It is greener than mine and greener than I would normally expect a Tamukeyama, but it is brand new to your microclimate so be patient. Perhaps when it settles in next year it may be less green and more purplish. I have trees (like a Purple Ghost & Peaches and Cream) which took several years to look like the pictures in the books. Enjoy your "just so pretty" tree which looks very healthy to me. Good luck!
I don't like the looks of the dead pruned back branches near the top. If this was due to last years late freeze then it should be fine. However, if it is the result of some sort of pathogen or disease such as verticillium, I would be worried. If this tree has it, there will likely be no chance of saving it. All you be able to do is water it regularly but not to much as root rot could make it worse, and prune any blackened areas back into to healthy wood (being extra cautious to clean the pruners after each cut).
I think maybe it's a stretch to be worried about verticillium at this point, since Stubbs has said the tree seems healthy, and it certainly looks hearty in the photos. The tree might have been pruned (sloppily) at the nursery for any number of reasons -- like maybe it was sitting around not getting proper care and the top growth was showing brown, crinkled leaves or other signs of stress -- so I wouldn't make too much of this. To me it looks fine and I think Stubbs can be proud of his success to date. There's a separate question, though, about whether this is the true form of Tamukeyama, and once again it might be too soon to decide about that, since the tree has just experienced a bit of upheaval and has only been in the ground a few months. But this is why God created dozens of maple nurseries, so we can order multiple plants of the same variety from different sources, and see if they all look alike. It's all part of the great cosmic plan.
Actually there is evidence of Verticillium alboatrum in this tree. Not enough on its own to kill it but just enough inside the plant to cause some issues with leaf color and amount of new growth flushes we will see. Overall this Maple is representative in size and stature of the larger sized (larger than a one or a five gallon plant) that have been coming in from Oregon into the retail nurseries for the last 10-15 years or so. The two stubbed branches on top show some signs of sunburn but they also show signs of Tight Bark. Probably the latter is what caused the branches to be trimmed back when the new growth shut down as the leaves were starting to leaf out and collapsed before the leaves could expand. Smart thing to do in the nursery is whack off the deadened areas but cut back to the base (trunk of the tree or larger side branch) when it happens (not leave the exposed stubs) to the top growth on a dissectum. We have the tale of two Maples with the two photos. The photo on the left does show what a rubrum form red looks like during the Summer when grown in full sun or high light - well done Matt. The second photo shows the coloring I would expect this Maple to look like in high light conditions. It is true Gomero that Tamukeyama and Takiniyama both retain their purple red color when grown in dappled shade better than they do when more exposed to direct sunlight. Even the atropurpureums will green out here during the Summer when grown out in the open with no protective shade. Really, there is no discernible difference in color of this tree shown in the second photo and our Red Select grown in two locations. The key here is not the color of the older Spring growth but the coloring of the new growth. We see red in the new growth so, the what is wrong with the leaf color answer is nothing is wrong. The lobes are not cut right to be Tamukeyama at this time. That plus the fact that the lobes are way too long in length gives us a clear notion that this tree is not a Tamukeyama at all. Time, plus Fall and next years Spring growth color will give us more of an idea which red dissectum this one is but for now all we can do is say what it isn't, while waiting for the tree to give us a better idea what it is later. I do believe this is a named cultivar but a variant form of it which is rather common after all of these years of continuous propagation by grafting. Just do not let this tree overly stress due to heat, winds, lack of water, excessive pruning and over fertilization with Nitrogen and it should make a nice landscape tree for you in that spot. As long as this tree does not have new growth issues after the Spring leaf out then you should be okay with it there. Jim
@Mr Shep: Uhh, if you are referring to the pictures posted in this thread, they are one and the same tree, taken at the same time, (within two minutes of each other), just taken from different angles. Not one hundred percent sure the point you were trying to make.
The coloration of the Maple in the two photos are not the same on my machine here or on the machine located elsewhere from which was the computer I made my post from. Okay, which photo of the two photos is more likely to be closer to the actual color of your Maple? Summer color of the old growth leaves and the new growth coloration are key elements for determining placement of red group Maples in their prospective group. I've taken a few photos of our trees in bright light and have taken a few photos seconds apart that yield different coloration depending on how that affixed or varying light hits the leaves. In one photo the light can be lighter than what we were seeing from that plant as we took the photo. We can also through the viewfinder on our digital camera better determine which photo is more representative of the leaf color before we ever snap the trigger. I showed a series of photos of a girl series Magnolia of ours in the Magnolia forum in which the coloring of that plant at that stage of flower development should show a rich purple to the tepals. When photos were taken in the right light, the red coloration I was seeing from those flowers was captured by our digital camera and decided to share them. So, we can see some red cast in the flowers but that does not mean those flowers are red. By how the light was hitting those flowers a preponderance of red coloration was being emitted as reflected light. If that same Magnolia had flowers each and every year the same color as the photos I showed everyone that collects the girl series Magnolias would want to have one to be in their collection. It was just an anomaly in how the light reaction caused a coloration that was captured that we do not readily see from that Magnolia. Does not mean we will see it all the time but the red hue that can emanate from that flower is there but we do not always see it. So, when others claim their Magnolia is red I showed them how a rich purple flower can appear to be red in the right light. Thus, what a Vulcan may look to a person in Italy, New Zealand or at times in Washington does not mean it will look the same as that here and elsewhere, that on that one special moment in time, in the right light the flowers appeared to be red but what was the coloring two seconds later from the same or another vantage point? Atropurpureums generally show certain colors during the Summer that we do not see from the Spring leaf out. We see different coloration in the old Spring growth and the new Summer growth as well from the Shojo, Nigrum, Rubrum and the Nomura red groups as well. The issue here is that the photo on the left shows Rubrum Summer color. Tamukeyama is not a Rubrum red group Maple. Red Select, which is purported to be an Atropurpureum by those people that never have had or have seen the right plant of it, is a Nigrum group red of which your Maple is closest to being at this point in time. Tamukeyama is not a Nigrum red group member either. I mentioned before in this forum that true form Tamukeyama is not readily seen available any more. A related side note: I do wish that Monrovia Nursery still carried their old Tamukeyama Maple, of which they were about the last ones and really the only major supplier to offer the right plant for sale to the retail nurseries. Later on in time Takiniyama took its place among the nursery standard red dissectum Maples. The issue here is that the stronger growing and more adaptable Takiniyama is not an Atropurpureum Maple. Jim
I had suspected something to this regard. I am seeing at least two cultivars being sold as tamukeyama. I have one (and see them coming from Greenleaf) that has relatively sharp, fairly undissected lobes that goes more purple in part sun/part shade but does get a more bronze red cast to it in good deal of sun. This form rarely shows basal lobes. It is a bit wilder in habit than most; definitely not showing the grace of Inaba shidare, but interesting nonetheless. I also see what I suspect you would consider takiniyama with a slightly more dissected leaf shape and a slightly redder color. It does not hold its color quite as well, definetely what I would consider to be more of a rubrum type (although it does have some atropurpureum coloration during may). The tree above doesn't remind me of either tree, but it is not too far from the one I consider takiniyama (if that is really what I think it is). Either way I hope I'm wrong about the disease issues, perhaps it will make you a real beauty in a couple of years.
Just wanted to say that you all rock, this has been one of the most helpful groups of individuals I have ever experienced on line. Thanks for all your responses, I really do appreciate it. I will keep a status on how my pretty little tree makes out, maybe can help to solve some of the "What tree is it?" questions. Thanks, y'alls.
This is what I read here, it made sense to me: The red color comes from the presence of sugars stored in the leaves. Some maples produce and store more than others. The sugars are produced by photosynthesis during the day as sunlight is absorbed. The tree for normal respiration and metabolic functions uses the sugars. The rate of sugar production is a function of daylight hours and the rate of respiration is a function temperature. The red color is strongest in the spring when the sunlight hours are increasing and the temperatures are still cool. This results in high sugar production and low consumption. The longest days are in June, in the northern hemisphere. As the days get shorter in mid to late summer the production of sugar decreases and with higher temperatures the consumption of sugar increases. This results in a net loss of sugar and as a result the red color fades to green as the sugar is depleted. Some cultivars produce more sugar or consume less and as a result hold on to the sugars and red color longer. A tree planted in shade produces less sugar yet consumes the same as one planted in sun resulting in a loss of the red color sooner in the summer. This also explains why the red color lasts longer in northern latitudes than in the southern areas. The hours of daylight are longer in the northern latitudes during the summer and usually the temperatures are lower resulting in the sugars remaining in the leaves later in the year. The same cultivar planted in the same conditions in Portland might hold the red color until late August while the one in Atlanta might bronze out in late July. The result of an hour more of daylight and nighttime lows of 62 degrees verses 75 degrees.
Corinna & Dale, thanks for that very enlightening discussion of red leaf color and sugars. Always nice to learn more about our maples.
