Hello, On a few of my maples I am noticing some extremely leggy, FAST new growth, so much so that it seems almost vine-like. It is the worst on my Sagara Nishiki/Nishiki Gasane, and it was getting so long that I actually pruned them off. Well, the plant will have its way, and In 2 weeks I have almost the same amount of growth, now with double legs out of 1 stem (which is a bit more attractive). The others I've noticed are: Orange dream, Higasayama, and one super long (but not wholly unattractive, as it is arching upwards) shoot on Dr. Brown. I'm wondering if anyone might have any suggestions about pruning these? Or leave them be and see where it goes? Thank you!
It's a little hard to tell on the higasayama, but they appear to be developing normally on the rest. Just really long shoots with large spacing in between leaves- no reversions that I can tell. They are new plants to me as of this spring, and are in pots. When I potted, I added (once) a very small sprinkling of dr. Earth organic fertilizer, but none since.
I agree, and will add that the overfeeding could have happened before you bought the plant. This time of year there is still enough time (hopefully) for this type of soft growth to harden off before winter, but if you get any in the later part of the season it will be too soft to survive frost and will act as a magnet for Pseudomonas infection during winter/spring.
I agree with Sam & maf - sounds like a feeding stimulant issue like say too much gibberellic acid (GA). Tiny amounts of GA have meaningful effects. It sounds like you pruned off the original growth on Sagara but it came back. This excess expression should dissipate and then I would see how they harden off. Would like to hear more about what happens in a few months.
Everyone seems to be on the same page here. I wonder if this might not even be left over from boosted understock production. I'd also let it grow, and try to stake where necessary for now. If it hardens off it'll fill in more next year. -E
Some of the juiced rootstocks can impart this kind of vigor into the host tree. Some growers are hoping for exactly this in their young grafted plants. Then again it is not out of bounds for a Sagara nishiki, less likely in Nishiki gasane, to have vigorous growth with long internodal lengths in young plants, whether they have been fertilized or not. As the plant gets older the nodal lengths will shorten. In Japan Sagara nishiki can get quite large in size with most of the vigor seen when the trees are young to juvenile ages (3-15 years old). I do take exception to the notion that extra vigorous growth can weaken a plant to make it more susceptible to airborne Pseudomonas. On the contrary vigorous growth has proven to be less likely to be affected by airborne Erwinia, Xanthomonas and Pseudomonas. Even in palmatum type Maples that have Pseudomonas in their systems vigorous growth limits the spread of the Pseudomonas from moving upwards into the tree. This is part of the reason why most of the time the Pseudomonas in moderate to healthy trees is generally only seen in the lower limbs, crotches and mostly visible in the trunks of most infected Maples. When the trees stagnate in their growth or become overly stressed is when we will see evidence of Pseudomonas elsewhere in the tree. Sometime see what a water mold fungus (Phytophthora sp.) can do to a Maple in a greenhouse and see the wilted and black colored terminal tip shoots if we want to think in terms of a fungal counter to our Pseudomonas syringae var. aceris, bacterial pathogen, culprit way of thinking. Jim
That extra long growth on new trees is a pain. It seems like the growers give the trees ean even larger dose of food the year before they send the trees off to market. I get trees which can have 3' to 5' of new growth that looks out of place. You will also find loads of internal leaves on branches which will disappear when you plant the tree. For me I prune most of it off and out of the inside of the tree. It may make the tree look a bit bald that year but in the next season the tree fills back out and looks more normal.
I have seen some leggy growth that to me also detracts from the overall look of the plant in some cultivars. If I felt the ultra vigorous, leggy, growth was too extreme to suit me I'd prune it back to a height more conducive to better balance the shape of the tree. Without a photo to look at or even a hint of the size and age of the tree we can only surmise that the leggy growth may be an issue to the owner of the Maple but may be a normal pattern of growth in some cases in some locations for that Maple. I cannot agree more that some growers have indeed pushed their plants way too much for resale purposes. The bigger issue here is when they are planted in the ground that they have a strong tendency to sit there and not grow much the first year and for as long as four years in the ground in some locations. What I have seen that really frustrates me is the lack of amount of root volume these overly fertilized trees get while they just sit there and do nothing. The lack of root growth is almost a death knell for a palmatum type Maple grown as a landscape tree around here. Some areas can get by with the sitting for a length of time but we haven't been able to overcome it locally. If the tree sits for over a year here, it usually dies out during the next growing season. Jim
I agree with this, and for that reason usually add a little bone meal to the planting soil to encourage root development at time of planting (don't tell RonB). Do you think this new (to me) mycorrhizal fungi would help with root development, and how is it best used?
Yes I've seen this too, and I also like to use a little bone meal at planting. If that's not bad enough I also amend the soil. :) Otherwise young Japanese or Chinese maples have little chance to establish here. I'm experimenting with mycorrhizal fungi this year, Sam. Using the "Rootgrow" brand that the RHS blesses. I've only started in mid-year, but I'll let you know if I see results at the end of the season. I have a few nice variegated seedlings in their second year that started getting tip blackening on new growth. When I pulled them I saw there was virtually no root mass at all... so it's a good test for the fungi. (I also changed them to an even faster draining soil mix.) I'm planning on trying EM (Effective Microorganisms) spray, too. -E
O.T. EM method is a "winner" approach in several growing areas. Ron is just the messenger. If we want to severe the head of someone, we do it to the self-professed authority. Ron's caution regarding soil additives, even soil nutrients, is pause for cause as too much of what we felt was a good thing for us, such as adding in Calcium and Phosphorous to some soils can act like a poison to a plant we want to nurture and grow on. From an applied side approach if we are happy with our results with our soil amendments then it is somewhat pointless to have someone come in and try to tell us our means is all wrong - they are not growing the plant where we are. We are not playing the game of right or wrong any more, we are trying to find a means for our given areas that can lead to growing a better plant and sometimes we have to resort to approaches that others felt (rightly or blatantly irresponsible) was silliness. The people wanting to sell product can be just like a snake oil salesman of yesteryear. Tell us what we think we want to hear and then vanish when we experience some issues that we were told would not be a problem. I've made some comments about mycorrhizal fungi that are sure to displease the sellers of product but for use here we have some limitations that affect how well and even how long we can expect to achieve some help from our beneficial fungi inoculations. It is up to the sellers to know some of what those limitations are and a good way to start is to finally read a university level textbook on the subject such as the great Agrios ‘Plant Pathology’ various edition books to be able to better know what some of those agronomic limitations are. Jim
On the consumer side of the posting, I really recomend for people to look a little more close at the superleggy growth trees when buying. These trees may have short term or long term issues. One area of concern is weak crouches. I prune out a lot of the double branching to reduce possible splitting. Also pruning the top of the tree (topping it) to help strengthen the eventual trunk of the tree. I have pulled whole sides off a tree trying to untangle the branches of these well fed trees. One thing to also think about is the roots. This is something to look at even without leggy growth. One method which I am now using is simple, it is to just push on the tree in the pot. You will see if the trunk moves in the pot or if the pot moves. You will find that the pot will not move when the tree has a small root system. (now this is not exact since a tree may have just been repoted and move or easily). By doing this you will get a better idea of the root system side. I have found that many of my trees with issues are the tree where they did not have a sufficent sized root system for the tree. These same trees usually had the noted issue of moving in the pot. (not a science)
Wow, thank you all for the information! I'll post a few photos when I get home- the Sagara Nishiki is going crazy, once again. I can't believe how fast the new shoots are growing...
Hi, I jumped on this thread when I saw it because I noticed it in a few of my Japanese maples, too. However, mine have been in the ground for quite awhile. My A. palm. 'Ever Autumn', and 'Kasagiyama' are two that I can think of right now and they have been in the ground from 2008. I don't fertilize my maples. Another that has about 20" in growth on several branches is A. palm. 'Hagoromo' which was in the ground 2007. The Hagoromo has had very slow growth until this year. It was in a dry, shady area until two red oaks growing within 20' died last year. Now it has much more sun. In addition, we have had a really wet spring, followed by heat with adequate moisture. So, I kind of figured it had to do with the change in growing conditions. I guess the main point I have is that I am glad to hear I don't have to cut back the branches for any reason other than looks. I was curious to see what happened next year with the growth, especially since I'm in zone 5 and if temps are low it will be interesting to see if they survive and come back next spring. Great discussion, anyway. Kay
Some trees have the leggy growth naturally. I have an Ap 'Ever Autumn' and it grows like a weed. The growth is usually laterial . There are other trees which will send up large shoots which some peope called "Bolts". As 'Aureum' does this often.
O.T. More off-topic notes. I am just a messenger also in regards to Maples. Most of what I tell in this forum are the sentiments of others and not simply my own opinions and sentiments. Ron's cautions are always something that makes some of us think and reason with. He never has written in a steadfast manner don't use Bone meal but has cautioned people about using it for all of the wrong reasons. Much like me with Fish emulsion in that I've seen more bad happen with plants than I have seen good come about from it's use, when it was used by the "wrong hands" and certainly used for the wrong plants with the wrong soil type. As we become more aware of what a cultivar can do, will do and will not do, we realize that vigor in a Maple can good and it can be a bad situation for us. Knowing the cultivar, what it can do and does in certain growing climates and environs becomes of major importance to know. I've seen Sagara nishiki send out top growth by the third year that can easily reach one meter and more in length. To some people this may seem excessive but to me in some locations I'll take it and be happy about my in ground plants rate of growth. Crotches of double forked Maples have always been a pain. In many of the Oregon grown Maples a weakening in one of both of the side limbs becomes rather apparent due to persistent Pseudomonas syringae, not the aceris cultivar or variety still to some people, but from another form that has been sustained in the Maple via our propagation methods for a long time. Even seedlings from infected plants can have this bacterium in them. I have an old tissue culture Maple, one of the first of its kind that has both Verticillium alboatrum and Tight Bark in its system. With selective pruning out of weakened and diseased wood I have been able to keep this Maple alive for the last 15 years or so and it is close to being a 30 year old tree now. Most of the professed Acer palmatum 'Aureum’ sold and grown in Oregon are not the old Golden Palmatum Maple. They are instead the golden form of Aoyagi, which when it was introduced in Japan prior to it coming here into the US was called Aoyagi aureum. A fine example of this Maple was posted via photo in this forum by Mendocino Maples a few years ago. If I wanted one again that is where I'll go to get one. The Golden Palmatum Maple is actually a hime form Maple in which the Spring leaves are the largest in size and the late Summer, early Fall new growth are the smallest in overall size with each successive new growth in between smaller in leaf size than the former new growth was - a true hime in this regard. We do not see that with the Aoyagi or Aoyagi aureum, nor do we see it in Ukon and Ukon aureum. Jim
I haven't been able to get a good photo of the Sagara Nishiki, but it has "recovered" from my pruning off the long shoots into DOUBLE shoots at the pruning line- about 4-6 inches! They aren't reverted, thankfully. What a determined tree!
I love Sagara nishiki, it is very determined and must have really sweet sap in the springtime because its early growth is the first to be eaten by deer, squirrels, chipmunks. Amazingly, by the end of the season I can't even tell. It also seems to attract large branches that break off major limbs. Kay
emery by chance did you update us re the use of this fungi for your maples? Last season (2012) I included mycorrhizal fungi in each of the holes when planting perennials. And so when I planted my first tree ("A S Aureum") last month I did likewise i.e. added a liberal dose of this commercially prepared Mycorrhizal fungi into the hole: http://www.usemyke.com/mycorise/gardening/tree/myketree/myketree.htm (readily available in Canada)
Well, I've continued to use it. My winter 11/12 was so disastrous in terms of potted maples lost (hundreds) that it's difficult to draw any conclusions. I certainly see very good root growth with some understock, but whether that's down to the mycorrhizae or other cultural conditions is hard to say.
