Seiryu?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by chumasero, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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    I bought this lovely tree recently. I wonder if it is a seriyu?
    Pictures were taken on 11/01/2004. Any confirmation would be appreciated.
     

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  2. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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    I bought this "seiryu" about the same time of the previous one. After planting, it turns brown from green and I also noticed that the new shoots are dark red. Anyone's suggestion would be appreciated.
     

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  3. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    While I am not an expert in this area, this tree does not look like a Acer pal. 'Seiryu'.
    There will be other people who can confirm which cultivar you have got.

    Bob
     
  4. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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    Hi, Bob,
    Thank you for the prompt reply. I don't think the second one is a 'Seiryu' either. What do you think the first one?
    Thanks again.
    PG
     
  5. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I would suggest that neither tree is Seiryu, instead the first a green dissectum that has been extensively staked or grafted to a very tall standard, the second tree a red dissectum?

    Seiryu should maintain an upright form. And while shrub-like in growth habit, it does not cascasde as the dissectums do. Mine will occaisionally have some horizontal branching, but the result in not to bend or cascasde. The fall color is a deep red-brown. It also seems that the leaves are a bit smaller than many disectums, while the leaves of these two trees seem larger than the Seiryu I have.
    New growth is green edged in red/pink and the new chutes are red in color, but not deep red. Mature bark is green.

    Are the trees in this post grafted and if so, where along the trunk??

    Michael
     
  6. Seiryu

    Seiryu not
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Acer palmatum var. dissectum also sometimes comes partly true from seed. If you graft unipn can be found on these they may perhaps actually be seedlings, esp. if they where produced by a small operation.
     
  8. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    I completely agree with Michael. Leaves are too large and it appears these trees were "staked" in order to achieve their height.

    Bob
     
  9. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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    Thanks, everyone. For Michael's question, yes, both are grafted very low (graft union covered by the mulch in posted pictures).
    Grafted seedlings? If not, can anybody give me an idea what they are by any chance?
    Thank God, they are Japanese Maples, for sure.
    PG
     
  10. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    PG-

    First, uncover the graft union- move the mulch away from it a few inches. Maples don't care to be planted too deep or mulched too close. Let some oxygen in:)

    I am surprised you found a graft scar. After reading Ron B's thoughts, I might have bet you had seedlings. It is not common in my area to see maples staked as high as yours, especially with no lower branching. Someone put some real effort into staking your tree given the graft is so low. It will make for a unique specimen as it grows.

    I saw a dissectum not quite as tall as yours yesterday and it had been planted for some time. It was having some trouble balancing the weight of its canopy on the tall trunk. It had lost a few branches and had been staked long enough ago that some of the trunk and cascading branches were growing around its stakes--literally. Obviously a lack of attention, but a tree such as yours should be cautiously monitored in its youth and properly pruned and stabilized.

    You might ask the party you bought it from for its history and who supplied it. If it was grafed, someone along the way might know what supposed cultivar it came from. Also, anyone who put that much time into grafting and staking must have some idea of what you might have. How tall it your tree?
     
  11. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi PG:

    Can you tell us where you bought these?
    If you do not want to tell everyone then
    then send me a Private Message.

    I agree with AcerBob and Michael, the first
    Maple is not a Seiryu. Seiryu's leaves are
    much smaller is size and are more delicate (we
    called it feathery) in comparison. I will admit
    though that I've seen a Maple being sold by a
    certain mass merchandizer (building and home
    supply store) this Spring as being a Seiryu that
    is most certainly not a Seiryu.

    Michael:

    Costco sold several of these high staked trees
    during early Spring. I could not get enthused
    about them as I felt none of them were what
    the tags said they were such as Crimson Queen,
    Garnet and Ever Red. All of the plants came out
    of Oregon. I told the misses they were all just
    red dissectum seedlings that were grafted. It
    is nice to call a spade a spade but when we deal
    with naming nurseries in a less than nice light
    in an open forum we end up openly stepping
    on toes. I'd prefer to tell the nursery in person
    their names are all wrong and then offer to help
    them if they are still speaking to me. Still, as in
    this Maple forum it all comes down to whether
    the nursery will believe me or not. If I know them
    they will believe me but if I do not know them or
    they do not know of me, very little good will be
    accomplished. Regrettably, any nursery can call
    their Maple whatever they want as there isn't any
    real mandate in place to name these plants correctly.

    Jim
     
  12. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Certain ID is somewhat difficult

    'Inaba shidare' has a naturally, somewhat upright growth habit and for a number of years has been staked upright by some commercial growers. Also the leaf segments seem to have a broader spread than some other dissectums. Until they are established any given distinguishable traits may not be evident but I have found that it will tend to green out somewhat unless given ideal conditions and is well established. Color is also somewhat dependent on climatic conditions that can be variable from season to season. Just a guess but the first is 'Inaba shidare'. Looking at the second set of images, I notice a bluish cast or waxy bloom on some of the younger wood and 'Tamuke yama', for one, is noted for that trait. So I will venture to guess that it could very well be the cultivar 'Tamuke yama'. Maybe as time goes on and the trees are more established and I get more experience under my belt, I could give you a more affirmative answer.
     
  13. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Jim:

    I agree. At first I had written a reponse with the belief that maybe since the trees had been staked so tall, that the Mis-labeling was intentional. But then my after thought was that it might not be intentional as it really wouldn't be hard for someone to get ahold of a few seiryu plants for stock and propagate them. I don't think seiryu is very hard to graft and certainly grows quickly. That left me with the realization that it is likely just neglect in detail (I hope). The distinction between a weeping disectum and an upright one should not be too difficult if the individual(s) labeling the tree were aware enough to make the observation.

    I have not seen any dissectums quite as tall as these here in Oregon, but they are interesting. I really would have some concerns about the longevity of a dissectum atop that tall of a trunk with all the lower branching removed. I am sure many would do fine, but I certainly puts an already brittle wood as some risk.

    Michael
     
  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    Trust me these tall staked Maples have confused me
    over the years until I saw how they were field grown.
    Notice the size of the caliper. Shouldn't we have more
    total branches than what we see? The main reason is
    these were pruned, fertilized to the max and trained
    to grow tall to develop a height standard as well as a
    caliper size to sell them at a premium price. Balled &
    Burlap nurseries still sell their Maples that way. Once
    back in the ground the leaves will scale down in size
    but I'll tell you it will be a while before we know which
    Maple this one is. I've seen a Green Cascade grown
    like these that knocked my socks off so much I bought
    it and planted it in a cousins yard. I had mine at the
    mountains but I wished I had hers. Mine is still only
    about 4' feet tall. Hers is 6' tall and makes a nice, large
    mound whereas mine is a nice small shrub and my tree
    is 10 years older than hers is. There are some real
    advantages to the taller staked dissectums. I like them
    and for Inaba shidare and Oregon Garnet they can make
    wonderful landscape trees. The older Crimson Queens
    and Ever Reds were like these also. Red Dragon and
    Red Select and even Beni shidare can be tall staked.
    Garnet and Tamukeyama really never were as they do
    not respond well to tall staking. Viridis and Waterfall
    can be trained also but the reds aside from Sekimori
    and Seiryu do much better than the green dissectums
    do. Look in a yard that has had one for 10 years and
    tell me they do not look pretty darn impressive. It took
    us a while to like the high staked trees but once you
    learn to like them, you end up liking them a lot. Almost
    every time we drive by a neighbor's yard the misses
    sees their Crimson Queen in their front courtyard and
    asks me when will her Pendulum angustilobum look
    like that. I tell her its not going to unless I train it and
    then we have a 20 year wait to get that much height
    on it. I think PG will be happy with these once they
    become established in the ground. They will fill in
    and cascade allover in time. We can worry about
    the possible names of them later.

    The reason you do not see these in nurseries in
    Oregon is that most of them are being shipped
    here or shipped to the East Coast as B&B trees.

    We may not know what these Maples are until
    next year. Problems with labeling persist but
    many nurseries do not mislabel on purpose.
    The problem some nurseries have is many times
    they bought these Maples when they were one
    gallon sized or smaller with these names on them,
    grow them on and sell them at what they bought
    them as being. It gets difficult to track down where
    the name became errant at times. In the past we
    had a much better idea when we asked where did
    the wood come from as one major source was quite
    adept at mixing the wood up so that the recipient
    nursery had a mix up of names from the beginning
    at grafting. It is when a name for a green dwarf may
    have yielded a red palmatum instead is when the calls
    for help would come in. A lot of times the nurseries
    took the sources word for it as they did not know the
    Maple real well but did know the name of the Maple.
    Remember what I wrote you a short while ago that
    people would come into retail nurseries asking for
    a Maple by name. They did not know what the Maple
    looked like but wanted that name of Maple. If the
    nursery did not have it they would try to get it at
    some point in time. They may have located a source
    for that Maple but no one would ask, is it the right
    plant? It was assumed allover Oregon and here as
    well to a certain extent that the name was correct.
    The grower had to know what Maple he or she was
    growing right? No!

    I've always felt that if we did not get confused
    a lot with Maples we were not paying attention
    or we simply were not learning these plants.
    The more you know the more confused you get
    is how it all works.

    Jim
     
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I don't see anything unusual about their structure, weeping laceleaf maples that have been trained up are commonly offered. Specimens with branches that cascade from some height are more perceived as being more elegant than low, moundlike ones. The main problem with identifying them will be that there are so many cultivars. Try visiting a nursery in spring with a representative twig from one of yours and seeing if it matches anything they have there, then look at other examples of the same cultivar elsewhere for awhile to see if a pattern of consistent matches emerges.
     
  16. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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    Michael:
    Please see attached pictures of the graft union (1ST pic is the 1st tree, 2nd pic is the 2nd tree). Both trees are 5 feet tall.

    Jim,
    I have nothing to hide, especially to Mr. Shep (BTW, I love to read your postings. I would more than happy to be a reader of your book about the history of JMs in America and their growers if you are planning to write one – maybe already published? It’s fun and a learning process as well). I bought both trees from Home Depot about a month ago. The container’s label shows it is Van Meter Nursery. Please find attached picture. I went to HD this morning and the JM guy gave me its number 503-668-5000 (and I called and left a message about my concerns). Also, I got this by google search:
    Van Meter and Son Nursery Inc (Wholesale)
    9720 Se 362nd
    Boring, OR 97009-9713
    (503) 668-5000
    http://www.greatplantpicks.org/scripts/NurseriesByWholesale.asp
    Just in case you know them and want to make fun with them.
    The JM guy said that in some cases they label JM based on vendors’ labels, in some cases they do not agree and label those trees based on their own ideas. If what he said is true, mislabeling (negligent or intentional) could happy any place (in this case, Van Meter and HD) along the product value chain before reaching final buyers. According to Ron B’s message, I do think there is, technically, a possibility that a nursery (I’m not saying Van Meter here) distributes its JMs by the model: seedlings-grafted seedlings-“mislabelingâ€- popular named cultivars. Therefore, negligence (a tort) or/and fraud (a crime) is created with those lovely trees. Hey, Ron B, your terrible truth makes me nervous now.

    Elmore,
    It is always great to know what you really have, even though for somebody new to JMs like myself. Thank you for your great effort. You know, it is interesting enough that my first JM is an 'Inaba shidare' (based on label), which was bought and planted this spring (10 gal. from HD, but no way to find the nursery because the container was threw away already). It stands amazingly well in full sun exposure all day long the whole summer (Sacramento’s baking summer). Its color fades from purple to green, but no scorch leaves. This fall, I found all the new leaves coming out with silvery pubescence. My question is 'Inaba shidare' new leaves have silvery pubescence? Or it is positively an 'Ever Red' instead? Anyway, what ever it is it looks great. I will take some pictures when new leaves emerging from it next time.

    Already, it is great fun in this forum.
    PG
     

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  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi PG:

    Just to clarify things.

    I've probably been the most vocal of anyone in
    this forum about the labeling issue as well as the
    misnaming. I feel the Maple Society can deal
    with that at their leisure as in time they will want
    to address those same concerns, even if a buddy
    of theirs or a fellow member is involved in the
    misnaming of Maples. The problem, as always,
    is was it done by design or was the Maple in the
    nurseries own estimation what they honestly feel
    the Maple is?

    For your Seiryu it could be one of several areas
    that could have caused the name change. Mass
    merchandizers guarantee the Maple to live for a
    year, they cannot guarantee the Maple is the correct
    variety as stated on the label. That is not a fraudulent
    activity it is more due to their oversight and lack of
    knowledge. I don't think that we as individuals or
    as a forum want to be held accountable for a dispute
    that may be caused from a few of us answering a
    question as to the name of a cultivar that was
    purchased. Most all of the time we are buying the
    Maple as is and if it survives the year that it is
    guaranteed, then the retail nursery has done what
    is expected of them. We have enough derision in
    the naming process of Japanese Maples that can
    give us a lot of discussions in this forum. Many of
    those same discussions have been held elsewhere
    and have gone on almost since day one of the
    Maples coming into the US from Japan.

    The nurseries that stand behind their plant as to the
    growth and the name of it are the nurseries that most
    of us will buy our Maples from. Some of us will only
    buy from specialty nurseries in which we know the
    owner or the nursery staff rather well. It is fairly
    common and has been for many years to mark a
    Maple as being a variety even though it may not be
    that same variety. Some nurseries do that on purpose
    but most nurseries will not conceive of doing that.
    In your case it appears that we are chasing a name
    of a Maple that is not quite what the Maple was
    supposed to be, today, based on what we can see
    of it but that does not mean that the Maple sold to
    you was sold in a fraudulent manner or with the
    intent to fool you into buying it. You bought
    the Maple based on whatever reasons. We all
    have done that to buy a Maple because we liked
    it or we felt that the nursery may have missed it
    by not naming it properly and we got a bargain
    in our mind because the nursery did not know
    what they had. We usually do not cry foul when
    the error of oversight was ours in purchasing
    the Maple. We wanted to have it and it is
    our responsibility to know the Maple better
    than the nursery does.

    How you deal with Van Meter and Home Depot
    is your business but you are better off to ask
    around to some nurseries in Sacramento, Elk
    Grove or Roseville such as Capital Nursery
    and see if they have Seiryu so you can have a
    nurseryman that can back you up if they are
    willing to do so, should you want to pursue
    your concerns expecting something other
    than an explanation in return. Our opinions
    in this forum are not transferable and are
    not binding at all in a legal claim issue.
    Without us you probably would not have any
    concerns about your Maple or you saw one
    elsewhere and felt that you needed to ask
    us to get our opinion about your Maple.
    Well, we gave you an opinion on what it
    isn't but I think it is safe to say we do not
    know right now what Maple you did buy.
    I suppose that if you are feeling that you
    got swindled out of your money by Home
    Depot that you can get your money back
    but we cannot be held accountable for the
    opinions we gave to you about your Maple.
    This is an open forum and we will get
    diverse opinions on occasion but none of
    those opinions can be construed in any way
    to be anything other than opinions. If we
    are to be involved in claims or disputes
    away from the internet based on what we
    wrote on the internet then very few people
    will offer their opinions in the future. The
    days of open forums will soon desist and the
    hosts for such forums will no longer want to
    sponsor open forums if there are liability
    issues and legal concerns.

    We are not dealing with a cubic zirconia
    sold as a genuine diamond by a certified
    gemologist. We are dealing with plants in
    which knowledgeable people have had an
    array of differences of opinions for many
    years and will continue to do so for many
    years to come. It may be a focus for some
    of us to help prevent some people from
    buying a Maple that they should not buy
    or at least advise them to buy from a reputable
    source so we have a better idea as to what we
    are buying but even then there is no guarantee
    that the Maple is the variety we thought it
    was when we bought it.

    I do not know Van Meter nursery but I am
    quite familiar with Boring, Oregon. I will
    cruise by there sometime and see their
    Maples as then perhaps I can get a better
    idea as to what your Maple is and perhaps
    learn who sold them their plants to start
    with.

    Earlier in the day I looked at your Maple
    again and I felt that I do know what it is
    but I cannot confirm it is that Maple
    until I see it in the Spring. You may
    have bought a rarer Maple or at least
    not as common a one as your Seiryu.
    I did see a similar Maple in a Home Depot
    as well but in Fresno as I was looking
    for another plant at the time. What I
    saw was not an Acer palmatum but was
    an Acer japonicum instead marked Seiryu.
    You may be better off with what you have.

    I bought 4 Red Selects from a Home
    Depot in Merced 5 years ago that had
    Ever Red labels. I can guarantee you
    that no one in the entire Home Depot
    store system knows Red Select. They
    do get in some diamonds in the rough
    on occasion and if the nursery staff
    wants to call those Maples Ever Red
    that is perfectly fine with me. I am
    grinning like a Cheshire cat while
    leaving the store with my Maples
    and better yet Ms.Shep is happy
    about it all also!

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  18. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    PG:

    I think Jim is focused on the right idea. I am still struggling with the idea he mentioned in his previous post reflecting the idea that naming maples becomes more difficult the more you know, not easier. I never imagined it would be quite that way, and when you stand near your maple and admire it, you really don't care what maple it is.

    In your case, there is some helpful distinction is separating your maple from Seiryu, an upright dissectum, but finding out what maple it is becomes trival next to the reasons you bought the tree. Clearly it doesn't matter how the label reads if you don't have a notion of finding a particular cultivar. That is how I find myself shopping on most occasions, walking among the trees and looking for the ones that stand out among the rest. When I find the right one I read the label and try to decide if it is what is says it is. From there, it is many months and seasons with some trees trying to sort things out.

    Mr. Shep's knowledge and ability to identify trees, as well as all our efforts, are certainly not meant to detract from the experience and the thrill of yours or any purchase. I don't think it has in your case. And in my case, I have had the opportunity to learn a little about disectums atop tall standards--althought grown here, I don't see too many. But as Jim points out, they do fetch a hefty price in some nurseries. I suspect you got a good deal on yours.

    When things really become frustrating is when you go looking for a particular cultivar, of any plant for that matter, and what you buy or mail order is not the plant in-question. It is a bit different as it is more dissappointing. Still, one then appreciates the challenge of trying to find out what plant they have and the lesson that maybe you'll shop elsewhere next time.

    Best of luck and thanks for sharing.
    Michael
     
  19. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    A most interesting thread full of valuable information
    They look to be two lovely trees to me. I do think, however, that Seiryu has a more 'feathery' leaf as described by Mr Shep
    This is a pic of my Seiryu a few weeks ago. It is easily the most talked about Japanese Maple in my garden
     

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  20. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    < I am still struggling with the idea he mentioned in his previous
    post reflecting the idea that naming maples becomes more difficult
    the more you know, not easier. I never imagined it would be quite
    that way, and when you stand near your maple and admire it, you
    really don't care what maple it is.
    >

    Naming Maples is difficult as there are some Maples some of us
    know like the back of our hand and in some cases know a good
    portion of the history of the Maple. In order to convince people
    what it is, the task sometimes becomes either irritating or rather
    monotonous at times. I am going to write it and get it off my
    chest right now. The bitter pill to swallow is when we say to
    ourselves, why did we even bother to help just to hear misses
    telling me again "I told you so".

    If everyone could just be happy with their Maples we would not
    have the problems with names but too many people buy the name
    first rather than buying the plant.

    I agree PG should be happy with those two Maples. He got
    a real bargain with at least one of them. I may have already
    named one of the Maples but I would like to see closer pics
    of them and see them in the Spring. Now is not a good time
    to ID Maples. I am an old nursery hand, I know how nurseries
    operate and many times the name is not important but the plant
    and its overall health is. Who cares what the nursery calls the
    plant if it is good enough for us to want to buy? As you well
    wrote, we can learn what it is on our own if the Maple has a
    name. There is nothing wrong with unnamed seedlings. I've
    seen a few that were just as good as many named Maples.
    Layne has one right now that holds a great deal of promise.
    It was Don's seedling that he gave to one of his brothers in law
    whom also had a nursery. Now the nephew is propagating it
    and selling the Maple to retail nurseries and still it does not have
    a name. I am surprised by that but at the same time I am proud
    of Steve for not naming the Maple on his own.

    Sam:

    A note on Seiryu. The old Japanese form never turns orange
    or gold tones in the Fall. Don's Seiryu always turned crimson
    in the Fall and the coloring was throughout the Maple. I've
    planted many of them in the past for landscape projects.
    The two I placed in front of our Church are turning their
    crimson right now. Yes, there have been seedlings grown
    from Seiryu which complicates matters but back in 1977
    two other forms of Seiryu came in from Japan, a red leafed
    form and a yellow cast green form. It is the latter form that
    you have with that Fall color. We see mostly grafted seedlings
    now in the nursery trade. The leaves are larger in size, not as
    many lobes either and are not nearly as feathery as the old,
    original forms of Seiryu.

    You have a marvelous setting for Maples and other plants.
    I wish more people had your enthusiasm for having nice
    plants in traditional Japanese style settings.

    Jim
     
  21. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Yip ... you are probably right
    This is the same tree in early summer
    I think it is an absolute 'stunner'
     

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  22. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    My 'Seiryu'

    Which I obtained from Harold Johnston a number of years back and finally planted in the landscape, colored up the first fall, a combination of what seemed like gold, purple, red, yellow and orange. Every fall since it has been primarily a crimson/red.
     
  23. Ralph Walton

    Ralph Walton Active Member 10 Years

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    Denman Island,BC
    keep it up!

    I love reading all this enthusiasm about your maples. It's almost enough to make me divert some of my hay/cow/pig/grape... energies. I do have some new (planted this spring) maples that I will have to photograph in the spring to see if we can ID them. We just pick them based on what they look like or sometimes because they are free from a neighbor, but now I am interested to find out what we have.
    Ralph
     
  24. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Fall Seiryu

    Here are few photos of my Seiryu taken today. It is only a 3 year tree and relatively sparse, so I can't dazzle you with overall pictures of its form:) as Sam has-- But at least a few closer shots of the leaves.

    In one photo you can see new growth still hanging on from fall--even with a few nights below 30F so far in the past week. In of the other pictures you can see a couple green leaves edeged in deep burgundy. Maybe an example of the way the fall purple form of Seiryu doesn't exhibit the orange coloring, as this tree hasn't so far. In contrast, I helped my neighbor purchase a very large 15gal. Seiryu last summer that seems to have just a bit larger leaves and went through a beautiful golden orange phase prior to turning purple--it looked like the fall photo Sam posted of his Seiryu.

    Sam--has or will your tree go from orange to deep purple?

    Best regards--Michael
     

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  25. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Michael, the tree has gone through many different magical colours for me
    This is the closest it has come to 'purple'
     

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