Seeds 2022

Discussion in 'Maples' started by LoverOfMaples, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    Made a big mistake not marking which species is what. One of these seedlings (smaller one) has a shell on it that looks like a bigtooth maples and not a bigleaf maples. Got to wait until their true leaves show.
     

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  2. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Wow, you guys have it all going on! I have no germination yet this year, although some of last years seedlings are starting, mostly A. sinense, some diabolicum. I'm just as happy in the sense that it's a PITA when frosts are still a big risk. I have some A. serrulatum in soaking, that I rec'd from Taiwan a few days ago. I'll plant it out directly into a tray, though.

    I've had some really great seedlings from shigitatsu sawa, I expect and hope this is the same for you!

    It's a good idea to call maples by the binomial names, to avoid confusion. Common names vary locally, e.g. some people call A. grandidentatum a Canyon Maple (although it's clear enough, truly!).

    On which note, not wishing to wax overly pedantic -- although you all know me, sooo -- I'm sure most of us know that Senkaki is a synonym for 'Sango kaku' which is the correct name. But if any don't, I went ahead and said it, so there you have it!
     
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  3. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    I couldn't agree more... ;-)

    For instance, though not maples, I've always been surprised by the number of conifers called "cypress" whereas they're a totally different species. In French we even have "cyprès chauves", a word-for-word translation of "bald cypress", one of the vernacular names of Taxodium distichum where it comes from, the US...
     
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  4. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    [Hi @emery , this post might turn into a rant but please be aware it is not directed at you, or any other individual, more a general frustration with naming...]

    That is the official party line, or less charitably, the Maple Thought Police take on the situation - I think the reality is somewhat more complicated and due to the passage of time the full truth might never be known.

    People with knowledge of the trade in Japanese maples have stated in these forums several times that 'Senkaki' and 'Sango kaku' were entirely different cultivars that came out of Japan back in the day, and that in the 1970's and 1980's when J.D. Vertrees wrote they were synonyms in his book he must not have had first hand experience of the true 'Senkaki'. Differences are said to have included leaf size and colours and the tone and longevity of bark colour, along with a subtle variegation in one variant. From a statistical viewpoint, it does seem extremely unlikely that there was only ever one coral bark cultivar that had ever been selected up until this point in history. Ever. (For historical posts on this topic try a search of the forum with "senkaki" as the search term and "mr.shep" as the member name.)

    A related theory is that Sango kaku was an umbrella term for various forms of coral bark maples and 'Senkaki' was a selected cultivar.

    Traditionally in England, and I think also in France, the coral bark cultivar available was known as 'Senkaki' before the 1970's and only later started to become known as 'Sango kaku'.

    There are also said to be various versions of 'Sango kaku' due to nurserymen choosing seedling selections that bulked up quicker than the original, and grafting and selling these as 'Sango kaku' to increase profits.

    Some time after 'Senkaki' and 'Sango kaku' were synonymised the market conditions must have changed and, ironically, the same nurserymen who had previously suppressed 'Senkaki' started to introduce new coral bark cultivars under new names!

    When I bought my original plant over 20 years ago from a long standing English nursery the description in their catalogue was "Senkaki or Sango kaku" which I am taking to mean that they originally obtained the variety as 'Senkaki' but were transitioning to 'Sango kaku' because of what the "experts" who wrote books were telling them. At various times over the last twenty odd years I have called the tree either of the two names depending on which way the wind was blowing, and I truly do not have enough knowledge at this time to 100% determine if it is 'Senkaki' or 'Sango kaku'. For now I will continue to refer to my new seedlings as being from 'Senkaki' but obviously would not name them as being that name. Either way, I hope I have some nice plants out of these seedlings!
     
  5. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Very interesting, thanks for posting.

    But I think that :

     
  6. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Totally agree but binomial nomenclature does not help with cultivar names. The species naming situation in Acer is pretty good these days imo fwitw. At least compared to what it used to be with all the different Japanese species lumped together.
     
  7. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    Heres a canyon/bigtooth maple seedling (A. Grandidentatum) it can be differed from the bigleaf maple seedlings (A. Macrophyllum) by the smaller size and greener stalk.
     

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  8. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    Another canyon maple germinating in a horseshoe shape
     

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  9. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    Boxelder maple (A. Negundo) seedling
     

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  10. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    you can see the difference of the lone canyon maple seeding compared to the bigleaf maple seedlings to the right.
     

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  11. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    a germinating canyon maple
     

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  12. LoverOfMaples

    LoverOfMaples Generous Contributor Maple Society

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    A. pensylvanicum today. Nice set of true leaves.
    20220327_194842.jpg

    A. palmatum 'Mikawa yatsubusa' seedlings. I can't wait to separate these and get them on their way.
    20220327_205956.jpg

    20220327_210012.jpg

    A. palmatum 'Shishigashira' seedlings. I'm guessing the tiny ones will be close to the parent. Man they are so tiny.
    20220327_205745.jpg

    20220327_205851.jpg
     
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  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I totally agree with your post M. There are more and more unscrupulous people online creating new names for the same cultivars to entice collectors into buying something they probably already have. I created this thread to help.
    Maple cultivar by another name OR (Synonym).#27 #458 #665 #319 refers to SK and Senkaki
    I have been told it has helped a lot of people.
    I'm hoping this forum will be the online help for anybody who is considering a purchase of a maple, but unsure if it is just a another name change to get our £€$ etc from us.
     
  14. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I think there's no question that 'Sango kaku' available in the market is a grex (as usual meaning in this context an ensemble of similar cultivars or selections). However there does seem to be the sense, among experts like Harris and van der Maat, that -- as in the similar issue with 'Atropurupureum' -- there is a real cultivar named SK, in it is available from a few sources. Harris still sells something he calls 'Senkaki' (I don't have it) which he says is the same as SK, he just doesn't accept the name "change".

    'Senkaki' is listed as a synonym of SK in both Bean and Vertrees. Yano, who is in a position to know more about it than any of us, lists SK (1882) but doesn't mention Senkaki at all. I can't think why, if there were an old cultivar from Japan called 'Senkaki', Yano would ignore it. Hilliers lists Senkaki as a synonym. Certainly red barked JMs sold in France, up until quite recently, were called Senkaki. French nurserymen are fond of traditional names like A. trifidum, A. neapolitan, A. campestris, not to mention insisting various misspellings are correct. So I don't put much stock in it.

    Similarly, and with all due respect to his experience, Mr. Shep vocally disagrees frewuently with accepted wisdom; this doesn't mean he's wrong, but personally I don't accept some of these stories as more than anecdotal. His opinions certainly shouldn't be discounted, but that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong every time. In this case, the overwhelming consensus is that Senkaki is a synonym for 'Sango kaku' One might speculate that Senkaki comes from "senkaku" and that this word may in itself be derivative of sango kaku. But that's really speculation, who knows?

    Anyway just pointing out the common consensus, as usual YMMV.

    I know you won't call the seedlings Senkaki, Matt! But whatever the parent is called, one thing is sure: SK or senkaki seed is some of the best germinating seed of all JMs, with IIRC Dirr quoting a 99% germination rate! Here's a good red bark seedling from the last time I did SK seeds, maybe 5 years ago. I only got a couple of red barks out of a few hundred seedlings. Cheers, -E
     

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  15. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, totally agree. My point, in a roundabout way, is that 'Senkaki' might be a selected better form that is worth preserving.

    I like his attitude. Is that the same Harris from Mallet Court nursery? If so I will have to take a trip down Somerset way one of these days. I have one of their old catalogues, and have bought from them many years ago at a show, but never visited the nursery.

    Yes, but no one man is going to know about all the cultivars originated in Japan, and many were lost during the unfortunate events of the 1940's. In the same way that mr.shep is not always right, neither is Yano, it is said that some Japanese nurserymen regard his book to contain errors. Also, I still find it unusual that Japanese nursery men only selected one cultivar from the coral bark maples in the pre-war times - I struggle to believe that nobody discovered a superior seedling from the grex and gave it a similar name.

    Yes, entirely possible, these things happen all the time, but even if it is a derivative name why not keep it to identify a historical selection of 'Sango kaku'?

    If I get any as nice as your pictured one I will be happy! I wouldn't have planted them so densely if I had known they were so fecund, the tiny size of the nutlets convinced me there would be loads of duds despite the fact they sank when soaked. Looking forward to see what I get - and will just call them my SK seedlings which can stand for either name!
     
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  16. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    One of the seedlings from 'Azuma murasaki' is self identifying as dissectum:
    IMG_20220403_134759.jpg
     
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  17. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    Here is a sugar maple seed. This one was treated with ga3 and that ga3 made it germinate, but it sprouted in an odd way due to the gibberellins
     

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  18. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    @maf how are the pentaphyllums doing?
     
  19. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Might have to go down the ga3 route with my Acer pictum as they are failing to sprout. I'll be interested to see how these 3 seeds of yours progress.
     
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  20. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    LOL its just 1 seed but i put three photos for the fun of it
     
  21. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    And why not !!!
     
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  22. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    A photo from yesterday of the maples that germinated last week. The majority are bigleaf (macrophyllum) maples . there is one boxelder and one canyon maple seedling. the boxelder maple has small true leaves and has hooked seed leaves, and the canyon (acer saccharum subsp. grandidentatum) maple has very light green seed leaves.
     

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  23. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    the canyon maple: you can tell its different from the other maples because the small true leaves coming out are green, not red like the bigleaf maples. the maple seedling right next to it is a big leaf maple
     

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  24. Soumil Yarlagadda

    Soumil Yarlagadda Active Member Maple Society

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    The boxelder maple
     

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  25. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    The SK seedlings developing into a mini forest with stragglers still germinating. Most look pretty similar but the odd one is redder in leaf.
    IMG_20220408_121446.jpg

    The Azuma seedlings are much fewer but more diverse.
    IMG_20220408_121527.jpg

    Some seedlings from dissectum seed also starting to show.
    IMG_20220408_121635.jpg

    A couple of pots of seed outside not doing anything yet. Soumil asked about the pentaphyllum seedlings, still just the two, very healthy for windowsill plants, will update that thread with pictures when they are a bit bigger.
     

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