I had bought 6 A. Palmatums in pots this year and although some are a bit shaken, all have survived our hot summer. All of them seemed to be planted too deep, but I didn't touch them fearing that I could stress them in hot weathers. I had planned to wait until leaf drop to remove excess soil, when they would be planted to the ground anyway. Today, although the leaves haven't dropped yet (they are in fall color), I decided to remove some soil from the pots thinking that it would be better to remove roots in stages (since some roots would have to be teased / removed from the sides and the bottom at the time of planting anyway). All of the Japanese Maples have visible root flares now, but I had to remove a lot of fibrous roots to get to the root flares. I have 2 questions regarding this. 1st being a general question and 2nd being more specific about one of those pots. 1. A lot of fibrous roots needed to be pruned. I had to remove as much as 3 inch (even in one of the plants I had to remove 4 inch!) excessive soil filled with fibrous roots. The root circling at the sides of the pots were terrible and clearly visible, so I am glad at least the top portion of the rootballs are good now. But I fear that removing so many roots can harm the tree. Normally, the trees should go dormant in 2-3 weeks anyway, but was it a bad decision not to wait until the trees went dormant? If it was indeed a bad decision, what can I do now to minimize the harm? Maybe plant the trees now and force them into a dormant state a bit earlier? 2. In the photos below, you can see one of those trees (Inaba Shidare) had some bad looking root circling with a woody root (buttress?). I'm fearing that it might choke the trunk in future, but I didn't want to cut it fearing that I would harm the tree by cutting such a big woody root. It is one of my best looking Japanese Maples as it seems to be only slightly effected in our hot summer despite being in full sun. So I don't want to lose it. Where should I cut this root (if I should cut it at all) ? It seems to go out of the trunk at the place that marked with red. It comes from a deeper place actually, I guess it moved up because the tree was planted deep, but I am not sure since it was not possible to reach to it without damaging the buttress next to it. The starting point can even be the place marked with blue. The whole thing is also on top of another woody root which is also parallel to the trunk (would this also cause a problem). What do you suggest I should do with this root? Cut from the red mark? Cut also from the green and blue marks to be safe? Or should I not touch it at all? It isn't really possible for me to return this tree or ask for a refund. I would be more than happy to make this tree live even with serious die back if it is my only option. Thanks in advance.
I don't have a lot of experience in this area and don't want to offer advice that might prove to be erroneous. However, I found this article to be quite instructive with regard to the timing and technique for re-potting and root pruning. Even if these trees are destined for in-ground planting, I think you may find the article interesting: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1219194314307.html Good luck!
Very interesting and informative article. Thanks... So, as I understand from the article, it was a mistake not to wait for leaf drop to prune those roots as deep as 3-4". I hope that this mistake won't harm the trees much. Also, I understand that I can safely cut off that woody root in the photos once the tree goes dormant. Any comments? Further ideas?
Plant enthusiasts in cooler climates can get by with pruning roots than we can with plants in warmer climates. Heat stress always takes its toll in some fashion on the palmatum type Maples, which is why most bonsai enthusiasts I've known around here prune top growth back when they want to prune the roots. Aside from being able to force containment of the roots in a confined area, there really is not a good reason where I am to prune the roots for Maples that are to be planted in ground at some point in time. We have a few factors working against us in that we know or we should know by now that we have Verticillium alboatrum in the plants system of which the internal fungus thrives on planted related stresses caused by nature and caused by us. Some Maples do not need a reason for the fungal pathogen to plug up the vascular system, sometimes all it takes is a Maple that falters in its growth and development to the point that the plants starts a slow decline. Of which the fungus or at least more visible signs of disease becomes more apparent the longer the tree is stressed and yes, a decline is indeed a stressor to the tree. Let's assume your tree has Verticillium alboatrum in its plants system - by the way I have not ever seen an Inaba shidare that does not have this fungus in its plant system, then what purpose is there in pruning a root system when it is the root system properly working that is responsible for keeping the plant alive more than the top growth does? There is a science involved in dealing with root systems of which the bonsai people have been good at but there is one constant they seldom ever mention and that is the number of plants they lost due to their overzealousness in aiding and abetting the internal disease factor we have in the palmatum type plants. If we can prune the roots to allow for more regeneration of root shoot development, that does not cause a faltering of the plant, then pruning of the roots would be mainstream in the nursery industry but so far this has not happened and it is my opinion that it never will become a widely recognized cultural application for the palmatum type Maples. Why are we hesitant to ever prune the roots on a red dissectum top grafted onto a tall standard? You have your answer in a thread posted a long time ago dealing with a Red Filigree Lace in this forum. You prune the roots without pruning top growth and you risk losing more top growth than you will get in return of new roots. We prune the tops hoping to get more root growth, this is science but there are times our pruning ends up being futile in that depending on how much Verticillium alboatrum we have in the plant will slow down the amount of new growth we expect to get. One thing that people are unaware of is that we also get Verticillium in the root system as well. This has been going on with the palmatum type plants for over 150 years and little has changed since to overcome it. It is due to the Verticillium alboatrum issue is why the bonsai enthusiasts that want to grow palmatum type Maples prefer seedling plants as opposed to grafted plants. The oldtimer specialists in bonsai, the self-purported "brown thumbs", are the people I would have the most interest listening to and learning from. When trees are not deep watered the roots rise from the ground. Can happen when trees with well developed root systems hit a compacted soil layer and lose the ability to "punch" through that layer and as a result we see more surface roots. This condition does not mean the roots or the tree are in peril, the roots are just adapting to a condition that is not to their liking. So, what can we determine from the growth that you want to severe when to me it is a non issue? Actually to me is expected to see from top grafted Maples on rootstock standards over time. By the way I know of some bonsai enthusiasts that would not be overly worried about your Maple at all. There is no circling that we can see that may in time strangle your tree, which in itself it a rather infrequent condition. for the palmatum type plants. Jim
Tops and roots are integrated, support of growth of each is provided by the other. Cut one and it dwarfs the other, until the cut part grows back. That is how root pruning of bonsai works, for a consistently slower-growing top the roots are pruned every year. In the case of root-bound plants the roots must be corrected at planting time or as soon as possible afterward to prevent future losses to girdling or toppling. This need trumps all other considerations.
"In the case of root-bound plants the roots must be corrected at planting time or as soon as possible afterward to prevent future losses to girdling or toppling." No argument from me on this. I never have shied away from root bound Maples but will correct the roots, even if it means trimming them prior to planting. I never had stated that pruning roots is unnecessary but we have to learn to side with caution when giving advice to others. It is the root bound trees that are much more capable of girdling once in the ground in some areas more than some others. Although infrequently seen this condition is much more common for root bound potted trees and no doubt the toppling issue due to root boundness can be difficult to overcome - been there and done that with a Eucalyptus that took about three years to finally correct. At the expense of over half of the top growth of the tree being pruned off in stages to force root growth and overall stability. Later on we got adequate replacement top growth again. Thank you Ron for your most welcome comments! Jim
Jim, I hear what you say about : However while visiting Japanese nurseries, Tsukasa maples in particular, I was struck by the small surface available at the nursery and the resulting impossibility for them to repot to a higher size pot. I saw fairly large specimens (of palmatums) in tiny pots. I asked about their cultural practices and I was told that they systematically root pruned their maples to keep them in the small containers until they are sold. Gomero
The roots that I removed (until I reached the root flare) were badly circled in fact. The photos above were taken after they were removed. As I indicated in my original message, I was also worried about removing so much roots. But isn't fall months "safer" for root pruning? I always thought that although the top growth stops due to dormancy, the roots continue growing underground, so I hoped that once the tree was planted in the ground, it could regain some of the roots that it lost due to pruning. Is this incorrect? Regarding the woody root... Well, as a matter of fact, I prefer not to prune it, because the space is too small and I am afraid of cutting the stem or other nearby roots which are not intended to cut. But, if I leave it, will it not grow into the stem and choke it after some years when it is big & thick enough? Or would that be a problem if the woody root actually surrounded the tree from all sides? Can a woody root harm the stem from a single side only? Once again, thanks a lot for the help.
Re: O.T. Where will this lead? Like what Ron stated we can have some control as to overall size of the tree due to root pruning. I am not opposed to doing this if we want a more twiggy tree with forced shortening of the nodal lengths and in some instances force the scaling down of the size of the leaves. As a matter of fact I saw about a 20 year old Bloodgood in Kyoto that really opened my eyes as to what we can do with a little hands on care, patience and a clean Maple to start with. We do not have the number of clean palmatum type Maples to choose from today that we had as little as 20 years ago. It is because of this is why I have advised people away from this forum to use seedlings from older trees in their home area to use for grafting as opposed to seed coming in from other areas of which we do not know anything about those plants to see how much Tight Bark is in those parent plants. Tim has access to old trees in North Carolina that do not show signs of Tight Bark. This is not a case that those mature and beyond mature aged trees outgrew Tight Bark over time, this just does not happen. For many years the Japanese chose to root cuttings instead of grafting to induce vigor and in some Maples introduce disease resistance into the host plant. An interesting question I'd have for Tsukasa nursery is if they still have the Tsukasa Maple to propagate at all as this Maple due to a physiological disorder was trouble to keep alive by way of rooted cuttings. This Maple had to be grafted in order to save it. Root pruning of this Maple as a rooted cutting in the past increased the chance that it would perish on us much sooner than we wanted. In some nurseries in Japan the Maple died out soon after the roots were pruned of which this practice for that Maple soon discontinued until the Maple was grafted onto a select, clean and vigorous rootstock. Then we could go back in and prune the roots without the fear that all we did was kill the plant before. We still have the same issue with Beni tsukasa but not to the degree that we had with the Tsukasa Maple. It can be argued that we still have the leaf issue with Tsuma gaki as well, one of the reasons why I swore years ago that I'd never own that Maple. I changed my mind a few years ago when I saw some nice plants from Iseli nursery come into a retail nursery near me and thought I'd try my hand with three of them. I can say that my old Beni tsukasa did not disappoint me in that the physiological leaf disorder still exists in that Maple when the tree lost some of its vigor and started to falter and during the falter stage I saw leaves with the issue all over again. When those leaves did not fall off the tree alboatrum came in and finished off the tree in three years. Not a lot I could do but stand idly by and watch the tree perish right before my eyes in due time. It is a frustrating learning experience to lose a mature aged tree but the keyword is learn from it. I've mentioned before that I broke root balls years ago, what do you think I was interested in doing? Do you suppose that I might have untangled roots, perhaps even trimmed roots and if I were to want to plant those trees that I may have pruned back some of the top growth as well after the roots were pruned? There is a reason why all of the balled and burlap trees are still alive in the misses yard and all it took was a little preventative hands on care. I just don't see or read of too many people that deal with these plants hands on any more, which is why I kinda liked the article in the GardenWeb. Which tells me the thread starter does have some hands on knowledge of plants, certainly is getting there and that to me makes a huge difference as opposed to someone telling others what to do and not have a clue what they are doing, just because a book author says do this and don't do that. In bonsai we try to please ourselves. The gratification comes from the inner peace we get from our plants as we can see the results of hands on care. There is an appreciation factor knowing we had some measure of changing what was or might have been and the plant itself thanks us for it, through its own beauty. Really, isn't that feeling more important to us than just taking a finished product plant and planting it in the ground and let nature play its role by keeping the plant alive. I like knowing I had a hand in that plant living, even from the ground stages of propagation to the time that tree dies a natural death. If the tree lives longer than me then someone else can or gets to enjoy it. This used to be the backbone philosophy of most all noted arboretums and botanical gardens being able to see and be around plants that we cannot see everyday and also know that many of those plants will still be there for the next generation and perhaps beyond to see, enjoy and hopefully learn from. Most nurseries still desire to grow and sell trees to go into the landscape. This is still the number one desire for the purist nurseries. Once we push plants to get them up to size just to sell them, we tend to overlook, pass up and even frown upon quality control. Look at the photos or better yet see the trees at Esveld sometime and then ask yourself how many others will get trees up to those ages. With Tight Bark in the Japanese plants I seriously doubt that the Japanese will get anywhere near the ages of the old Maples at Esveld, Valley Gardens, perhaps Kew Gardens and at Hillier's. Funny thing that we can still see proof that the rooted cutting trees, depending on the cultivar, can outlive the grafted trees and no one knows what they are seeing from the venerable trees we still have access to seeing in these world famous gardens. I suppose if our market was to sell small trees ready to go into a landscape or for bonsai then we also would have pruned roots a lot to make our trees more compact if that was what our market forces wanted. We did grow plants for pre-bonsai and some plants like the hime Pines did not require any hands on root pruning. They naturally grew in the form that made them sell like hotcakes to the bonsai specialists that had their monthly meetings at the nursery and always went home with plants. It used to make us feel good to see plants that came from us or from Koto Matsubara at the annual bonsai show. We can learn to air trim the roots by placing the bonsai pots on well placed bricks or blocks (wood or cement) to allow air to limit the need to hand prune the roots for us. When we used to lift the hime Kuromatsu Pine out of the horse water trough, which was a two person job, we did not see any circling of the roots or any indication of it. The roots that would normally have circled in due time were air pruned off just like Toichi Domoto said they would, which is why he always placed his big boxed (36" - 60") plants on wooden blocks. We had a couple of sensei to fall back on for information too. Jim
First of all, thank you for your post Jim. I'll keep in mind in future when I grow Japanese Maples in pots, that I will avoid unnecessary root pruning. I will instead prefer the air trimming. But in this particular case, the reason I removed so many roots already was that the root flare was burried in the pot too deep. It probably stayed like that for quite some time before I bought the pot, but I had to do it before planting it to the ground, don't you agree? Would it not be bad for the tree to keep the root flare burried in the ground as much as 3'' - 4'' and plant it just like that? Well, maybe my timing was bad and that I should have waited until dormancy, or gradually remove soil & roots in the season without stressing the tree too much. But still, in the end, the roots had to be removed to expose the root flare, right? Aside from pruning the roots to expose the root flare, as I had said before the other problem is that woody root that turns around the stem, but I haven't touched it yet. I prefer not touching it in fact, so I had hoped people would advise in this thread to just leave it alone because it was not possible for it to choke the stem. This is because I am simply scared to touch it to hurt other parts of the tree. But to me, the issue is still not clear. Can that woody root, which is seen in the photos, pose a danger for the stem and the general health of the tree in the future or not? I guess I would go ahead and prune it no matter what, if it made more than half a circle around the stem, but I just don't know if it can pose a future danger in this particular situation where it will grow into the stem at 1 side only simply due to being parallel to the stem and getting thicker in time. If there is indeed a risk for the longterm health of the tree, I have to do it now before planting it. Please advise.
Most likely the exposed "root flare" will not be an issue for this tree. Just to be safe I would not cover it up or cover over it with a potting soil or soil, Leave it exposed for now. You can cover over this growth later on, after the tree has been planted and had time to settle in.. Many standards used as a top grafted rootstock can develop this same type of woody, surface root. Actually is more commonly seen in rooted cuttings to which as long as the tree does not become root bound, then this woody growth seldom strangles a tree or causes girdling to come about. This growth has been there for a while now. The problem is that once you sever the growth in the three spots you marked then you would have to lift the tree out of the container and gently pull all remnants of that root away from the rest of the roots. This may not be a big deal to some people but to others that have not done it or have not had things not go according to plan, it may indeed be a foolish thing to do. [I cannot see the overall root structure but I can anticipate what is there.] You risk not having much roots left to sustain the plant to be planted in ground next year. I just would not risk it. If the tree were mine I'd leave the growth alone but I do have a suggestion for you. If you are not expecting hard freezes this Winter then please lift the entire container out of the ground and place it on top of the ground. The current placement of the tree bothers me with an underlying clay soil underneath the container with a probable hardpan layer not far from the soil surface. You can create a root rot by doing what you've done if you have standing water for any length of time below the container. Let's better ensure that does not happen. As long as you have adequate root growth on the sides of the root ball growing down inside the container you should be fine with this tree. You just have to guard against soil compaction now and later on when the tree is planted in ground, should you decide to use or are forced to use hose watering as your sole means of irrigation. The time the root flare can be a major issue is if you let this tree stay in too confined a container or pot for too long. Then if the tree becomes pot bound then the root flare might expand and send out all around horizontal shoots that may girdle the tree. Essentially, this is a worse case scenario, not common but can happen in due time. Ron is correct to mention root bound as a precaution, my concern is this tree ever being pot bound. Once the tree is in the ground the root flare is not a big concern as the ability of the roots to grown downward and later on grow outwards without restriction will allow this woody growth to become of no concern - a non issue if you will. Jim
If I was planting that particular tree, I would not cut the offending root, but leave it at the surface, making sure not to bury it, exactly as Jim has suggested. I don't have the multiple decades experience observing palmatums that he has, but I am experimenting with several trees I received years ago which turned out to have similarly deformed roots, keeping the growth at the surface in the shape of a foot or a boot. So far, so good. It would obviously have been better to correct these roots at an earlier stage in the plant's life, but that option was not available to us, and now we have to make the best of what we are presented with in the here and now. Regarding the timing of the planting of this maple, my preference would be to put it in the ground right away and not wait for leaf drop or whatever you are waiting for. It would be best for any remaining autumn root growth to be directed away from the rootball to help establish the plant in its new environment rather than being trapped within the current pot. Either that or wait until spring. Plant on a slight mound because of the underlying soil conditions.
Thanks for all the advice. maf, I'd like to ask one last question after reading your advice about root development in this autumn. You can see in the below photos why I have to plant / replant many trees soon. (The reason why they seem like they are in a hole now is because I dig a little bit to see how deep they were planted and how far down the root flares were) Not even 1 of my japanese maples were planted correctly by my gardener last year. They were either planted extremely deeply, or they were well below soil line... So, apart from planting my potted trees, I also have to dig a lot of my trees, expose their root flare and replant them higher than the soil around them. (I will do it myself now and make sure that the root flare will be even above the line of those red border stones.) Some of my trees have only a few leaves left, like the first two photos. And some of them, like the shrubby one in the last photo, still have many leaves. Do you suggest me to start replanting them all NOW or should I wait a little more, at least for the ones that still have many leaves on them and wait for them to drop their leaves?
Btw, the reason they are surrounded with borders is because I have bermuda grass, and I had to prevent them crawling towards my jm. (The diameter of the border circles are about 3.5 feet.)
Personally, I prefer to plant my Japanese maples while they still have leaves. In autumn there is usually a period of significant root growth, as top growth has ended for the year and all energy collected by the leaves is sent directly to the root system. As the leaves change colour and eventually dry up and fall off, stored energy in the form of sugars is moved out of the leaves and into the roots, further boosting root growth. Therefore I like to move them to their new home while there is still some time left in the growing season. September seems good in the UK, but in Turkey I imagine the best time would be a little later due to the longer season. In terms of time management, my priority would be to plant the ones from pots first, and dig and replant the inground trees second. Having said that, I am sure you will have good success whether you plant right away or wait. Given the proper aftercare, in most climates you can plant containerised maples in almost any month of the year as long as the ground is not frozen solid.
Update: I'm thrilled so far that, ALL of my japanese maples survived. Until now of course... All of them were either newly planted or transplanted. To my uneducated eyes they look good as of now and I hope they will survive our hot summer. Some of these trees have survived this climate for almost 3 years now despite all the negative factors (the climate itself is a negative factor of course, but in addition to that they were over-watered and planted too deeply at the beginning. Add transplanting last fall to all of that, and MAJOR root pruning so I am actually surprised that they are all still alive :) ) Here are a few spring photos. Any comments & advise are highly appreciated.
