Red form of Matsugae

I recently bought Matsugae from Barthelemys and it is leafing out red. I can find no reference to a red from of Matsugae other than Mr Sheps post here New Cultivars & Plant Patents

Mr Shep refers to a red form of Matsugae.
Maybe it is labelled incorrectly. Does any one have knowledge of the red form?

Here is Mr Sheps text from the post referring to a red form
They aren't going to care that a 'Beni shien' may be the old red form
of 'Matsugae' that has been around in a few very select
collections since the 70's. People do not get to see the
red 'Matsugae', know nothing about it so why not go out
and buy a 'Beni shien' as that new Maple is available to
them now when the 'Matsugae' was not ever obtainable
to them.

John

 

A long shot...Obviously you've got the label there but could it be Matsu Kaze as they don't list Matsugae in their catalogue?

 

Hi Houzi. I have 2 Matuskaze in different locations which are now leafing out and are not a proper red like Matsugae. Barthelemys have lots of cultivars which are not in their catalogue. They graft loads of cultivars each year and besides the ones we all know, there's always quite a few different ones each year. I will wait until the leaves are properly open, and ask Mathew at Barthelemys next time there. They will have the parent plant and hopefully will know more. Its either wrongly labelled or there is an elusive red form as Mr Shep mentions. I have Beni Shien so will compare with Matsugae when they are in leaf as Mr Shep mentions this cultivar in relation to the red Matsugae.

 

Oh well you'd know the difference then.Yes I think a phone call should help clear it up...be nice if it's the red form.(if you like it)I know their catalogue hasn't changed for years and Mathew saying they don't try to keep up with the latest trends,infact they stopped propagating a couple I was after due to lack of demand.Therefore I've always assumed the catalogue was their total stocklist.
Nice to know they've got more than they show but I wish they'd update the catalogue as it's too far to drop in.Good luck John

 

Anything in particular you are after, I can always have. Look next time up, or if I have it, there's a good chance I might know where it came from?

 

Cheers John,
Well actually it was Tatsuta and Takao I enquired about,also interested in Atsu Gama and Harusame...Barthelemy used to graft the 1st two(don't know if they still have the stock plants)
I think they're all old(or overlooked),and quite plain in appearance,but I'm of the opinion(rightly or wrongly)that if the Japanese chose to propagate them all those years ago,long before the commercial popularity of today,they probably have something special,not immediately obvious...perhaps pleasant form or super autumn colours.

 

I picked up Tatsuta from Barthelemys in February, it's coming into leaf now. It's a young plant. The others I don't have.

 

Really?...they must've started grafting it again.You'll have to let me know what you think of it later.It would also be a small plant for me due to delivery :)

 

I took some pics last weekend of Tatsuta as it was starting to leaf out, will take a few more this weekend and will post.

 

What would you like to know about
the red form of Matsugae?

I do not know the truth as to how
the Beni shien Maple came about
but I can say from plants I've seen
come West that there was little to
no appreciable difference in the
red form of Matsugae from Japan
that was a collection plant in the
Henderson Experimental Gardens
nursery and the Beni shien I first
saw arrive out here.

Raraflora nursery in Pennsylvania
also had the red form of Matsugae
from what I was told by Mr. Don
Kleim. So did Mr. Harold Hillier in
England that I was aware of from
Don years ago. I cannot say either
way that what you have is the old
form plant or not that I knew pretty
well in the 80's and 90’s but there
is the possibility that it could be still
around in England. Old collection
plants can have a habit of showing
up every now and again, out of the
blue, after years of very few to only
select people knowing where they
have been residing all this time.

Jim

 

Mr Shep. Thank you for your reply. I couldn't find any reference to a red form of Matsugae other than your post so the information you have provided is a great help. I have Beni Shien and have just compared both plants. As you state they are very similar, leaf form is identical apart from Matsugae has slightly smaller leaves. This may be due to one leafing out slightly earlier.
I had wondered if the plant may be incorrectly labelled but now reckon maybe it's correct. Hillier a is not far from Barthelemys where I picked up the plant and it was grafted by Barthelemys who are maple specialists with many old cultivars.
Thank you for your response.

John

 

John,

There is the distinct probability that
Matsugae can exist as other colors
such as a red-red and a pink-red. I’ve
seen and have owned one of them for a
short time and it was a seedling selected
from the “red” form of Matsugae. Your
observation is accurate to me also, in that,
as the years have gone by, the leaf size of
the Beni shien I have seen recently is indeed
larger in size with a little less crinkle and
less curve (crescent) to the central lobe than
the red form of Matsugae. I hope you do
have the old plant from Japan.

Jim

 

Jim,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. What I see with both cultivars fits in with your observations. I will keep an eye on the plant over the next few seasons, but it does look as thou it may be the red form of matsugae you describe.

Next time i am at Barthelemys who grafted the plant i will ask to see the parent plant.

Thank you once again

John