purchasing maples in the Winter... yikes

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Unregistered, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. I recently purchased 3 5gal maples from OSH. 2 of the maples were supposed to be Crimson Queens and the other a Burgundy Lace. Now that the maples have bloomed I noticed that OSH mislabled their maples... in a big way.

    The two Crimson Queens are not even a lace leaf type of a plant. One looks just like a Bloodgood and the other looks 'sorta' like a Bloodgood. Since a few months have past OSH is sold out their maples so I'm stuck. It's not a bad deal though, even for Bloodgood. They were about $18 a piece and stand 3-4' high.

    Now that I am back in the market for a lace leaf I found what I think to be a pretty good deal. A local nursery has about 10 Red Dragon and Ever Red maples in 5gal pots. They are all about 3-4' high... but not really full. The trunk is about 3' high then the top of the tree rests a clump of leaves and branches close to the size of a basketball. They are going for $40... Think I should snag a few?
     
  2. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Sure

    Where are you located and what does OSH stand for?
     
  3. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    I just registered, I'm the guy who started the thread.

    OSH stands for Orchard Supply Hardware. It's a big chain hardware store like Home Depot and Lowes.

    I live in Modesto, CA. It's about an hour south of Sacramento and an hour east of San
    Francisco.
     
  4. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sometimes we get the wrong plants when we buy in the winter, just the way it is with no leaves--maybe that is why the prices are better:)

    The maples you are talking about now sound similar to some I just saw here in southern, Oregon. They were in 2 gal. cans though and were the standard dissectum varieties on about 2ft. standards. I suspect they had a couple years of growth, but still most of it had not taken on the lateral cascading form yet, just upward and outward. They were offerred for about $40, but grown by a very reputable grower up north.

    In any case, that is about the average price around here for that sized tree. If you like the tree then buy it, but it is not a bargin per se. Wait until they have leaves and pick the healthiest one.

    MJH
     
  5. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Hey Colby

    I was born, raised and spent about thirty years about an hour west by north/west of your location. Oh yes...Orchard Supply Warehouse...Now I remember.
     
  6. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Well tomorrow I may end up spending a ton of money...

    I found a 10gal 'Red Dragon' at a Japanese Water Garden nursery here in town and it is gorgeous! It stands 4ft high (the nursery guy measured it to see if it would fit in my commuter car). And it has a "wind blown" look to it. The down side is the nursery wants $149 for it. It's almost too pretty to pass up.

    When I was at the nursery today I found a new love, the Shin Deshojo! This tree is amazing! It stands out more then any other tree in this huge nursery. It caught my eye right as I walked in.

    They have a 5gal Shin Deshojo for $89. The one I was looking at had to have been 6ft high and 4ft wide. I have a prefect spot for this tree but I'm not sure how it will take the sun. I would like to plant it in any area that gets morning, afternoon, and some evening sun. I could keep it well watered but all of that hot Central Valley CA sun might not be so good.

    What do you guys think?
     
  7. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Colby,

    You will find that a lot of the maples at OSH are mislabled. :-( I don't think it is their fault entirely. I think it's more of the grower's fault and their employees who could probably care less about what the maples are named. A friend bought a maple there that had a pot labeled Inaba shidare and a branch tag labeled Tamekuyama! You can go there and see two same trees standing side by side with totally different names....or totally different trees with the same name. As much as I like OSH for certain things I will not buy maples there unless it is really outstanding. If I could afford it I'd buy the big dissectum in a 20 gal. at the Hollywood location. They also have a similar one at the So. Pasadena location. They look ancient with lychen growing all over the bark.

    Get the Shindeshojo. $89 for a 5 gal. is a very good price. You're right about the leaves. They are very thin and delicate. In your (our) area protect them from not only direct sun but dry winds too. Last summer I bought one from Anawalt Lumber. It was kept in a pretty sheltered place with little sun or wind. After I brought it home and placed it on my balcony (which can become a wind tunnel as it sits between my building and another) the leaves began to shrivel up...not because of sun (it's in full open shade) but because of the winds. While my Shindeshojo looks fine dormant I'm still waiting for it to leaf out and give me that spring show it's known for.

    mjh is so right about being cautious buying maples in the winter. I wanted to buy one of two Higasayama that hadn't leaf out, but I decided to wait a bit and see since I didn't want to take a chance buying a big 5 gal. and finding out it wasn't what I thought it was. One was already gone a couple weeks later and the one remaining was just leafing out. The leaves didn't look like Higasayama as far as I could tell. The tree was mature enough to have had both older and juvenile leaves. I still waited then the second one was sold. I hope the people who bought those trees did get a Higasayama.

    I'm constanly learning that if you want a specific cultivar you should learn as much about it before you buy one. Learn the leaf shape and growth habit of the tree. Learn the seasonal colors. Learn what the juvenile leaves look like as opposed to the mature leaves. There's no rush. If I did make a mistake regarding the Higasayama no big deal. There'll be more of them later.

    Layne
     
  8. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Oh me...Oh my...

    Southern California and Japanese Maples...it still boggles my mind...where's Mr. Shep? Very adaptable trees, these Acers.
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I think Japanese Maples can adapt much easier to
    a warmer climate than a prolonged, real cold one.
    Don Kleim helped open the door back in the 60's
    for Japanese Maples to be grown in Southern
    California when word got out of what he had
    growing in Fresno. We always felt that a good
    Japanese Maple can be a quality standard landscape
    plant most anywhere in California. Even if I was in
    the Mojave desert I would have Maples a growing.
    Just give me enough neutral pH water and I'll do
    it.

    Certain aspects of Maples people have to learn
    their lessons the hard way. Buying Maples in bud
    while they are dormant is not recommended unless
    we know the sellers and have some trust in them.
    I've bought mail order in the past only from people
    in which I knew where their Maples were originating
    from. Then I nixed buying Maples that route when
    I learned who their growing source was and then
    bought from them instead. I do not like Maples
    coming in without soil, bare root, and will not ever
    buy a Maple sans the soil again. I purchased some
    dormant Maples mail order this year after a 14 year
    respite and I have mixed thoughts on my doing that.
    Some of the Maples have now leafed out and are what
    I bought them as being but there are a few (2 of them)
    that are not what they were supposed to be. One Maple
    in particular has not leafed out at all and it is not going
    to. I took a chance with a new source and will not buy
    from them again while the Maples are dormant. I have
    another shipment coming in from the same source but
    this time the Maples will be leafed out. I just hope that
    transit time in shipping does not adversely affect them
    like a First Ghost I had come in recently from an online
    auction seller in which the Maple was not watered a day
    or two before it was shipped and all of the new growth
    fried before I got the Maple. None of the soil stayed on
    the root mass the instant I lifted the Maple out of the
    plastic bag. Now, I have a project just to save it, if I
    can. Brad, therein is the biggest concern from shipping
    a Maple from a cooler climate, in this case Washington,
    to a warmer one. We can get warm here in March and
    two days travel with 80 degree or more temps with no
    moisture in the soil can be disastrous.

    Do yourself a big favor and do not buy Japanese Maples
    sight unseen. Just wait a few months and see the Maple
    leafed out and have a better idea as to what you are getting.
    I agree many Maples today have been misrepresented
    in what the cultivar is and people just starting out with
    Maples with designs of propagating these plants for
    friends or for resale later are just perpetuating the error
    to others. If we like the plant at a Home Depot, COSTCO,
    OSH or a Lowe's then buy it but it is far better to see it
    leafed out or leafing out rather than roll the dice thinking
    the Maple is what the label says it is. Even the more
    reputable nurseries can make mistakes with the names
    of Maples so really there is no substitute for knowing
    what the Maple should look like before we ever buy it
    unless we simply do not care what name the Maple
    is but take it from experience, we will care what
    the right name is later, no matter if the Maple is
    a Viridis or a Crimson Queen. Where we get hurt
    is when we thought we were buying a Red Dragon
    and got an Ever Red instead or in one particular case
    instead of a Beni musume we get a Peaches and
    Cream once the Maple has leafed out. Such an
    error is okay if we do not have a Peaches and
    Cream but it is not okay if we already have the
    Maple and we paid a premium price for the
    Beni musume as opposed to the price of a
    Peaches and Cream.

    A simple rule to heed is that if we buy a Maple
    dormant in bud we had better be ready to figure
    out what it is when the plant is not what we paid
    for. I do not worry so much about that as I can
    pretty well ascertain what the Maple is later but
    there are many people that just will not know
    for a long while or perhaps ever. Just don't
    put yourself in that position is the best advice
    I can give.

    Jim
     
  10. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks for the info Jim!

    Well I still can't figure out what the Crimson Queen from OSH is...maybe a droopy Bloodgood?

    I'll snap a few photos and maybe you guys can help me out.

    The Burgundy Lace is looking pretty much like a Burgundy Lace however, the leaves look too big. I'll take a picture of it tonight as well.
     
  11. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Burgundy Lace??

    Here are some pictures of the so called "Burgundy Lace" purchased from OSH (before it had buds). I seen a Burgundy Lace at a nice nursery and the leaves looked thinner.

    Anyway, this tree hasn't been in much sun so it's a bit green. I also too kthe pictures in the dark.

    Notice, it has 5 big lobes and 2 tiny ones. The brances are also really droopy (which could look nice in the future).
     

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  12. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Unknown Tree #1

    Here is the "Crimson Queen" from OSH, again it was purchased before the tree had any buds. This tree is also in the shade which is why (I think) is still green. But who knows, it may not even supposed to be red.

    Notice this tree only has 5 lobes without any tiny ones...

    And since this pictures shows leaf damage (in the center of the 1st picture) I might as well ask about it. Do any of you know what may be causing this? Could aphids be feasting on my gorgeous Crimson Queen (haha)?
     

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  13. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    regardless...

    nice looking maple!
     
  14. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Unknown Tree #2

    And finally... the second unknown tree. This one was again purchased from OSH before it had buds. It's in the ground and gets morning to early afternoon sun (facing East).

    I want to say the tree was labled a Tamuke Yama but I'm not sure. I do know that it was supposed to be some sort of lace leaf based on the description. This will be dug up tomorrow and my new Red Dragon will be replacing it.

    Any ideas on what this could be? It has 7 lobes, 5 big and 2 small...
     

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  15. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    And by the way, each of the three maples above were only $20 a piece. Not too bad...
     
  16. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks...but which one? :)
     
  17. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    So does anyone have any idea what the three maples are?
     
  18. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Well this morning I put the two mystery plants that are potted in the front yard. This should give them at least 4 hours of dirct sunlight.

    If I don't have any answers in a week or so regarding what types of JM's they are I'll post more pictures. I'm thinking that they will get red or purple.
     
  19. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Colby,

    Your #2 tree looks pretty close to Fireglow.

    http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_...le-Color-Even=#ffffff&Table-Color-Odd=#ffffff

    http://ganshuku.cool.ne.jp/23_1fireglow.html

    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/ex/acpfir.htm

    Regarding my friend's maple that had a pot labeled "Inaba shidare" and a branch tag which said "Tamekuyama" it turned out to be neither! So you're not alone.... He wanted a red dissectum (lace leaf) and got some that looks rather Bloodgoodish.

    Give it a bit of morning sun and not too much nitrogen fert. as that will green out your red maples.

    Hope this helps some,

    Layne
     
  20. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Are Fireglows really droopy? The #2 plant has very long branches that all droop to the ground. The leader is only 2' high. I'd say the branches are roughly 3' long.

    Did your friend purchase his maple from a hardware store? Or was it from a real nursery?
     
  21. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Colby,

    I think your tree's droopiness is due more to the thin branches bending under the weight of the abundant leaves. I have a maple that is meandering upwards, but the new branches droop down like yours. The older more mature branches are more straight and ridgid. It could be that the tree was fed fert. a bit high in nitrogen which can make the new growth a bit rangey. Stick with ferts. low in nitrogen like 2-10-10 or 1-5-5. The tree will have more slow, compact, and at least to me, natural looking growth. Personally I've been using Tillies 0-10-10 liquid fish fert. augmented with kelp extract. It stinks a little, but my trees really like the stuff.

    I myself do not have a Fireglow. So I don't know exactly how Fireglow grows as far as habit. I'm only guessing at this point. I could be totally wrong. I'm guessing by the look of your leaves. The leaves are palmate, not dissected and are similar in shape and color to Fireglow. Look at the overall leaf shape, the lobe shape, color, vein color, petiole color, count the lobes, etc. Some palmate trees will have five or seven lobes (five regular lobes and two smaller basal lobes). Also, if the leaves have 5 lobes look at which way they point, up, down. Do the two smaller lobes point to the back at an angle or do they point out to the sides? Do the sides of the lobes curl up, or do they curl down? What does the spring colors look like? Summer, fall and even winter. These are all things I am always constantly learning about maples. I bought my first maple about a year ago. These are things you'll need to learn about maples if you want a specific cultivar and don't want to rely on erroneous tags.

    My friend got his maple at....OSH! Recently I was at one of the OSHes here in LA and saw a tree that had a color photo branch tag that said Butterfly and the tree it was attached to looked NOTHING like the picture!

    If you come across a tree that just strikes you regardless of what the tag may or may not say my advice is to just get it. Even if you never find out the name at least you can enjoy a beautiful tree. But, if you really want a specific cultivar study it as best you can by reading about it either in books or online so you can at least understand what you're getting.

    Hope this helps,

    Layne
     
  22. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    That sure did help, thanks!

    Well you were right about the droopiness. Today I pruned back all three plants, they were all too top heavy. I also re-steaked two of the trees with a taller steak. Now they are looking like baby trees and not bushes!

    I will post a few more pictures in a few days.

    Pretty interesting about OSH. I actually bought all three because I wanted some nice red lace leaf maples in pots on my back patio... (Not knowing the 'Burgundy Lace' wasn't a lace leaf). The price was right, that's for sure! I was under the impression that I was getting a nice size maple for $20! I guess it's true, you do get what you pay for... :)
     
  23. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Colby,

    Since you're in CA you should be able to find maples from Sommer Wholesale Nursery or Monrovia Nursery. They're the two I always find and buy at independent nurseries and at Anawalt Lumber. You can get nice trees from either. Most 1 gal. are between $20 and $40 retail. Sommer grows a bigger selection than Monrovia and so you might find some trees mislabeled, but I have yet to find one mislabeled from them. Monrovia only grows about 10 or so cultivars I think, so getting a mislabeled tree from them is remote.

    I have a Shin deshojo, Butterfly, and a Tama hime from Sommer. I've yet to get a maple from Monrovia though I do have a Eugenia myrtifolia from them. Most of their maples I see are 5 gal. and up. Monrovia grows very good plants and you pay for very good plants, i.e. not cheap.

    Get J.D. Vertrees' book "Japanese Maples". I put off getting that book rationalizing that, for the price of the book I could get two maples! :-) But, I got it as a present and it opened my eyes! The book has A LOT of info. on maples. But, as I'm constantly learning about maples and, plants in general, you really have to grow the plant and experience it over time to really know and enjoy it.

    Enjoy your maples,

    Layne
     
  24. ColbyTrio

    ColbyTrio Active Member 10 Years

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    Has anyone tried to figure out what type of maples these 'mystery trees' are?
     
  25. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Colby,

    To be frankly honest, as I'm constantly learning, *positively* IDing Japanese maples can be difficult at best. Your trees, while very nice, are rather generic in a way and that's what's making it difficult to ID them. Not having Fireglow myself I gave you my best educated guess. If you had posted some thing with distinctive variegation, like say Higasayama, it would have been a cinch for most here...even myself :-) to ID.

    Look up Murasaki hime and Murasaki kiyohime and tell us what differences you see. I am doing to you what Jim does to all of us here, including me....excercising your brain regarding maples. :-)

    I pointed you to a few websites. Use them - I always do - as they're great resources even though they're incomplete.

    This mission is yours if you choose to accept it.

    Good luck,

    Layne
     

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