Planted in the wrong spot

Discussion in 'Maples' started by ROEBUK, May 30, 2016.

  1. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Over the years i think we have all been guilty of planting Acers in the totaly wrong position in the garden, myself included especially when i first started just went out to buy a plant read a book on where to plant it and off we go. Doesn't work like that!!

    Well i have learned the hard way after years of total wrong positioning with various cultivars, which i might add according to the books were planted in the right spot!!

    Pictures of a Wakehurst Pink which i bought over four years ago , first year kept in it's pot then planted out for the next two years and to be honest i thought it was very drab, some slight variation which soon faded but nothing to catch the eye. Fall colour was pleasing enough but had seen better pictures of others on the web.

    Decided to move to a far shadier spot last fall and the transformation this year is fantastic, such light delicate colours and shades very pretty hope to have some good colour during the rest of the season and looking forward to see how it performs in the fall.

    My motto now is ' When in doubt dig it up '
     

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  2. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Very nice Roebuk,you always manage to get the best out of your plants in the end.It takes a lot of patience to keep moving plants about,something I haven't always got ha ha...Whilst on this subject,seeing how your Momoiro Koyasan performed after you moved it into more sun,I thought I'd try it with the little Morrson's one I got recently.I'm giving it as much sun as I can but apart from new growth,it's staying green.Do you think it has to be in sun from the get go and then retains it's spring colour? Mine was already green when I got it,I missed the leaf out.
     
  3. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

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    I do think spring light conditions can affect the year's coloration. Most of my new spring transplants have slightly or very different coloration their second year, even if they're in the same spot in the yard. I'm not sure if it's transplant stress, leafing out in shade, or just the changes of a young plant, but there are many ways in which I've seen atypical coloration on the first, and even second, year.

    I'm very curious to see how your Momioro koyasan does in sun, Houzi. Mine is permanently planted in full shade now. I enjoy the green and the shape of the leaves, though, so for now I'm satisfied with only spring color.
     
  4. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Houzi..Tried something different this year have always wanted a Wisteria in the garden but the only area for it to be planted was where i have always kept my Momoira koya san,so i made the descision to place the MKS round the side of the workshop to make way for the wisteria. Does not seem to have affected it greatly just noticed that it's only now starting to show good colours but everything has been late this year.

    Also bought another MKS in April the last three pics are of the tree and it seems to be doing ok , this has plenty of shade though and is just starting to lose its nice pink colouration, will be looking for this to be planted out later just trying to think where it should go, might just try a little more sun on it for next year and see what happens!!
     

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  5. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

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    I wonder if we have slightly different cultivars of Momoiro koyasan. Mine has slightly different leaves. I think yours look more deeply divided. What do you think?
     

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  6. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Wouldn't suprise me if somewhere along the line something has been lost in translation? I think the second one i have is more a kin to yours at present but the longer into the season the older one gets, it then resembles yours but keeps it's colour for a longer period.

    Now wether this is because we are more temperate in the UK and have less sunny periods of hot weather which plays havoc with certain cultivars i don't know?

    One of the reasons why i have bought another tree from a different nursery is so that i can see what this one will be like in a few years time, see how it copes with the sun etc and how long the colours are going to last, plus also see if it keeps up to the other one with in the colour variations or deviates ie: more green less peach etc.

    My original tree came from Holland has do quite alot of trees here in the UK, now if they have a complete different strain of this cultivar i couldn't say but it's a interesting question?
     
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  7. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Well so far Maples,it hasn't made much difference to the colour.It's not as bright and allover green like yours,looks more like Roebuks second plant right now.It's handling full sun(not bad for a small cutting grown plant) but then our sun is probably quite different to yours.
    I'll wait to see how the move affects your plant too Roebuk.So your original MK is changing colour now? do you mean to the pink of last year or green? As it originally came from Holland and his maples are frequently farmed out to the other dutch nurseries, I see no real reason for there to be any imposters in this part of the world but you never know.
     
  8. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Well, to me Houzi's trees look completely different to those of Maplesmagpie. It certainly is a lovely looking plant
     
  9. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    I think you mean Roebuk's plants Sam!
    My little example seemed to have more divided leaves a month or so ago but now looks quite like Maple's.Perhaps we're too quick to make comparisons with youthful plants and different circumstances,especially this early in the season...Jim always says wait 'til they're mature :)
     

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  10. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Houzi.. You hit the nail right on the head there, have been trawling back over the pics of this tree since i first bought this from the girls at Hippo in 2010. Then it was around 3/4 years old and was quite pale with more green in the leaves , so i have pics from every season since and you can clearly see the changes every year, only slight at first but especially over the past two years i can definately see deeper colour changes emerging and the tree lasting longer in strong colours through out the year/season.

    As you also said we can't make comparisons at such an early stage in the trees life, it needs to harden off and put on good solid timber growth and settle into it's new enviroment plus the most important thing the correct amount of shade and light it recieves during it's lifetime.


    Have added some pics of ' Toyama nishki ' just to emphasise a point of shade and light, when i first bought this tree it was planted out in the "shade" and to be fair the colours were awful in the fall of 2014 a sort of burnt amber colour and little if no variagation , so this was then was lifted and placed in the corner of the garden in the shadiest area i have in a 40ltr container.

    Pic one is first week of June 2015 and pic two is today, totally different colours same tree, now will this affect my Fall colours for this year with having more red and less green in the variagation of the leaves?

    Will it turn the amazing colours of 2015, pics three and four? or will i have some other variation, remains to be seen!!

    One thing i have learnt over the years with JM is expect the unexpected :)
     

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  11. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Yes,agree on the age thing,you only have to look at Charlie's trees to see what could be once the trees are big enough for full exposure.It was his Amber Ghost which made me buy mine,though I wouldn't like to expose my tiny plant to all day sun.However,though his trees glow in summer,some seem to lack some reticulation/variegation as a result.I guess one has to decide what they prefer.As a side note,'Tsuma Gaki' when young looks terrible in too much sun..unrecognisable.
    Your 'Toyama Nishiki' certainly did look nice last year.Do you think the 2tone effect was due to variegation? From memory the only 2 variegates I've had with fall colour showed solid colour though I can't remember how much variegation was left by that time of year.Your's seems to echo the belief that less sun=better variegation,and I seem to remember JTI sharing an experiment where leaves were partially masked to prove that best fall colours need sun.So we'll have to wait and see I guess....as you say 'expect the unexpected'...I like that :)
     
  12. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    All look great, very well maintained, and healthy!
     
  13. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Houzi..Few more pics to back up your observations of the 'Tsuma Gaki' , bought mine last May after trying to find one for a while with no luck, then found this one purley by chance at a local garden centre,the first pic is when i brought it home mid May 2015, placed it under the kitchen window which is very well shaded and it basically stayed that colour for the rest of the season, but then went a stunning red and gold during the fall of 2015 second pic.

    Decided to leave where it was and this is the tree today pic three, so thats something else that prefers the shade? and here it will stay for the rest of the season.

    With regards the AG see pic four of my new 'Uncle ghost' almost resembles the AG when i brought that home from the nursery, will be interesting to see how this one develops?

    The 'Toyama Nishki' was a major eye opener for me and i was taken a back with the colours last year, have included a pic (7) of when it was in the ground in a "relative shade area" and frankly "ugh" and this was the main reason why it was moved, certainly think i did the right thing there know what colours i prefer!!

    Finally a 'Sharps Pygmy'same scenario planted this out many years ago, now going by what the books said 'Any light' well six years in the same spot all i managed to get was a good growth rate but no colours in the fall, just a basic burnt Amber colour pic five Nov 2013 and that was as good as it got. Gave it one more year in the same spot and same result nothing, so tree was lifted in the fall of 2104 repotted and placed in a shade area down by the side of the house. Pic six fall 2015 same tree super colours now and here it's staying!!

    Have certainly learnt over the years not to go by what the books say on planting, the tree will show you where it wants to be, remember " when in doubt dig it up " i do now !! :)
     

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  14. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Well there goes another theory ha ha.You've got better fall colours in shade on some maples,the Sharps Pygmy looked stunning!I have a very poor show in autumn mainly because the trees are mostly bare by the time they start turning.Wish I knew how to keep the leaves on a bit longer...hmm,spray them with hairspray?
    Another red ghost! how d'ya do it Roebuk? :).....I'm sure it's just down to it's youth.
    At last,looks like the wind's easing a bit today,I bet it will brighten up just when I go back to work next week.
     
  15. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    That Toyama nishiki is stunning, I have added it to my want list. But heavy shade for the FC? Interesting.

    Thanks for the pics, Roebuk, always helpful and great plants.
     
  16. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    Some publications say Toyama nishiki and Goshiki shidare are the same and this is not true in my experience. True Goshiki shidare turns green and white during the summer. It has more white, burgundy, and pink in spring.
    Just want to help make sure you get the right tree when the time comes to buy one.

    Mr. Shep talks about the different versions...
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
  17. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    And the award for most confusing cultivar goes to ????? Toyama nishiki , Goshiki shidare or Beni shidare tri colour only thing i do know it's not 'Hana Matoi' no big ones in the UK to my knowledge, only small grafts that have just started to appear these past few years.

    Have all three of the afore mentioned cultivars growing in containers in the same spot, all level with each other and all recieving the same amount of light shade wind rain etc and all witin a 20 foot line of each other, just so i can see who is who and there is a definate difference in all three with out doubt. Could have taken the pics without the sun really so you get a better view, will do that at a later date. But the main reason for keeping them like this is i wanted to see the fall colours then i should be able get a clearer picture, plus the variagation should be different on each as will the leaf structure, this i can already notice.

    The Goshiki and Beni tri colour were all planted out in various spots in the garden last year and were then lifted in the fall for the sole purpose of seeing the difference in colours and appearence etc, and what would happen if they all shared the same enviromental extremes due to positioning etc.

    It's like having all the ghost varieties and closey related reticulates trying to spot the difference is fun, sometimes i would say that they are all the same but with age comes the change. I also have Baldsmith and Watnong again very similar in appearence but you can clearly tell them apart, i can see why people say they are one and the same, but why if this is the case were they developed in the first place if they are going to look exactly the same as each and no one can tell them apart what was the point ?

    Did some one over many years start off trying to develop two different dissectum cultivars acheived this then over a period time have they all been so greatly chopped, changed crossed and fiddled about with that nobody now knows which is which and what cultivar performs better in which zone and more to the point in which continent , what might perform well in one country could have little or no effect in another country. Over the years we have seen so many threads relating to different cultivars (why is mine a different colour etc to someone else's) myself included scratching my head and thinking mine looks nothing like that one!!!!

    I think over many many years so many cultivars have somewhat been " lost in translation" along the way, therefore we can't always be 100% certain of just exactly what we have in our gardens, but in my case it doesn't bother me to much if i have something thats not "what it says on the ticket" i just grow them for the colours and the sheer beauty and immense amount of pleasure and sheer joy they give me over the years can't ask for more out of life can we ?
     

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  18. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    I know what you are saying that the two can be very similar at times and different at other times.
    Watnong is much wider growing with age, where baldsmith will stay more narrower of the two.

    Poor record keeping, mixing up scion wood, and lost in translation all play a role. Then you have those that misrepresent to just say they have it and will be happy to sell it.

    Another HUGE problem is winter grafting. How many times have you seen a strange shoot that does not look true to form or another shoot that is not a good representation of the variety during the growing season? Well now its winter and all the wood looks the same. Someone grafts one of the odd shoots and unknowingly sells it to someone who is going to use it as a stock plant at their nursery. 10 years later everyone is asking why nursery A's variety does not look the same as nursery B's...

    I'm with you. Love the one your with and enjoy what the variety adds to your garden. The only ones that really need to loose sleep over having the right one are the arboretums. Maybe that is why you don't see too many exotic varieties or a large selection of Japanese maples growing at arboretums?

    I was not trying to kick the hornets nest, I was just warning Emery that this is another one of "those" varieties that you don't always get what you expect when buying one. Emery almost needs to graft from yours or buy it from the same nursery you got yours if he wants the beautiful tree that you have...Otherwise he maybe disappointed with what shows up when he buys one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
  19. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yep you got that one right :) Pic 1 Watnong Pic 2 Baldsmith : The Watnong is a beautiful peachy/pink with green undertones at present where as the Baldsmith is a more muted less vibrant coloured tree at present but come the fall, but both very good growers, i am actually pruning the Baldsmith to follow the contours of the angle of the ground so the base comes way down the slight mound it's growing on, pruned away some of the mid section so i can get a far more weeping bushy top crown. In the fall this always looks pretty.

    I think we all pay our money and take our chance when buying new cultivars, i think it would be nice to hear from others in relation to what colours they achieve with their 'TN' i know i was totally amazed with mine no complaints from me!! another pic losing the variagation and almost catching fire it's so bright, emery you are more than welcome to have cuttings from mine if you want them? or i can find out for you if the nursery where i accquired mine from still have them on stock.
     

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  20. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Glad I've seen your pick of Baldsmith Roebuk.For years I've been thinking(looking at other's pics.)it's a fairly bright green plant with occasional pink hilights,but my lil' one has always been just another dull red dissectum,often with very dark green mixed in...perhaps it's the right plant after all.
    Just noticed you labelled one plant 'Ukigumo Nishiki'.I've seen this a few times recently.Knowing you've got another do you think it's just a trendy name thing? or was it once named so....I'm having doubts there's any difference.
     
  21. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well I killed the little Hana matoi I was given last winter, or should I say the graft failed? ;) A shame...

    Not meaning to kick off more confusion! Roebuk if you tell me where you got it, (you can PM if you prefer) may be able to figure out where the stock plant is. Otherwise thanks indeed, I may take you up on the offer of cuttings at some point.
     
  22. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    emery...Sorry you lost your Hana matoi, didn't buy one of these as young graft last year for the simple reason i have all on telling the other three cultivars apart !! and this would confuse me even more:) albeit it would be considerably smaller and i believe this one tends to throw more pinkish tones in it's colour variagation?

    First two pics are 'BSTC' , second two are'TN' and the last three are 'GS' and as you can see there is a distinctive appearence with all three laterly the 'GS' which i think is the easy one to spot out.

    The Toyama nishiki has a far longer and more droopier leaf formation than the others,where as the Goshiki shidare has a more bolder/stronger looking greener trait, and the Beni shidare tri tends to be more a more red/bronze colour and when in the shade you can tell the difference between the three.

    You can have as many cuttings as you want, no problems there just let me know later, re the nursery it's just based outside of Leeds didn't know it even exsisted. At the time when i bought the tree the guy who own's the nursery was trying to establish himself as a leading 'one stop'JM centre i don't think it quite worked out? tends not to carry as much stock now, but will look into this next time i am over there.

    Also he must have cornered the market in TN , have never seen as many in one one place, so they either came from some specialist grower down south or were all Dutch imports? but will try to find out more.
     

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