Plant ID Please

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by soccersara, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. soccersara

    soccersara New Member

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    Hi all,

    Just wondering if anyone knew what this is? It was collected on UBC campus at the end of september and it was a shrub. IMG_20180930_211931.jpg IMG_20180930_211946.jpg IMG_20180930_211936.jpg IMG_20180930_211940_1.jpg
     
  2. Backyard Botanics

    Backyard Botanics New Member

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    This appears to be Hedera (ivy), probably H. helix. Although self-clinging climbers when young, once established they become more shrubby and produce the distinctive heads of fruits shown in the photographs, which ripen over winter.
     
  3. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    Welcome to the forums!

    It is Ivy.
    Hedera helix possibly.
    The round things are the berries starting to form.

    Hedera helix - Wikipedia
     
  4. Eric La Fountaine

    Eric La Fountaine Contributor Forums Moderator 10 Years

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  5. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

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  6. Margot

    Margot Renowned Contributor 10 Years

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    Eric's comment about 2 types of ivy led me to do some checking online. What I read is that Hedera helix is usually called English Ivy while Hedera hibernica is often referred to as Irish Ivy (though its Irish origin is questionable). I wondered if I would be able to tell the 2 apart and, after a bit of googling, found this, which I retyped for my own files and for the interest of others on this forum.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Correct names are Common Ivy for H. helix and Atlantic Ivy for H. hibernica. Tough to tell them apart - you need to do a microscopic examination of the trichome hairs on the undersides of the leaves, or alternatively do a cytological check (Common Ivy is diploid with 48 chromosomes, Atlantic Ivy is tetraploid with 96 chromosomes).
     
  8. Margot

    Margot Renowned Contributor 10 Years

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    Why is it more correct to call Hedera helix ‘Common Ivy’ than it is to call it ‘English Ivy’ or to call H. hibernica ‘Atlantic Ivy’ rather than ‘Irish Ivy’? Isn’t the reason that botanical names are preferred is that they are definitive (correct) while common names are colloquial and not subject to the same scrutiny and rules? For what it’s worth, E-Flora BC gives H. helix the common name of English Ivy.

    I’m sure H. A. McAllister and A. Rutherford who wrote the chart I shared in my previous message would agree with Michael F. that the only way to be completely certain which species is which would be to get out your microscope. I expect the reason they came up with list of characteristics for each was to help guide everyday gardeners like me come up with a best guess about which we are looking at. It’s not like we have to prove something in a court of law.

    I would assume whoever came up with the following statistics took the time to properly identify the species they studied.
    "Like the related H. helix (English ivy), H. hibernica is an invasive weed in parts of North America with mild winters: in a recent study, 83% of 119 populations of invasive ivy sampled in the Pacific Northwest were found to be H. hibernica and not H. helix as was previously thought." (Hedera hibernica - Wikipedia)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Thanks for doing that.
    Reading this list, it would seem that the veining would offer a clear-cut comparison. It sounds so tidy and useful that I'm not comfortable believing it. Do you think it's really that easy? Raised veins on sterile phase leaves = Hedera helix, end of story?
     
  10. Margot

    Margot Renowned Contributor 10 Years

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    Sorry Wendy, I can't answer that question. I have not had an opportunity yet to try and figure out whether ivy I have access to are H. helix or H. hibernica. The list McAllister & Rutherford came up with obviously considered the original species, not cultivars. As soon as I have an opportunity, I'll see what I come up with . . . wouldn't it be fun to find out via proper microscopic or cytological methods whether our guesses are correct or not?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    In a document @Douglas Justice sent me, not published anywhere yet, he wrote "Both species have whitish stellate hairs up to 1 mm long, which are easily seen with the help of a hand lens. In H. hibernica they lay flat against the leaves and stems, while in H. helix they stick up and appear somewhat more bristly."
    I spent quite a bit of time last year trying to identify them from those hairs, and can't say I felt that I understood what I was looking for. The veining thing works for at least one leaf in these photos. :)
    Hedera helix (as identified by me, so keep that in mind)
    Hedera-helix_1925NelsonGilford_Cutler_20160629_P1260549.JPG Hedera-helix_1925NelsonGilford_Cutler_20160629_P1260549c.JPG Hedera-helix_1925NelsonGilford_Cutler_20160629_P1260558.JPG Hedera-helix_1925NelsonGilford_Cutler_20160629_P1260560.JPG

    Hedera hibernica (same caveat)
    Hedera-hibernica_Gilford1869Comox_Cutler_20160629_P1260569.JPG Hedera-hibernica_Gilford1869Comox_Cutler_20160629_P1260569c.JPG Hedera-hibernica_Gilford1869Comox_Cutler_20160629_P1260573.JPG
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Because those are the official standard names used by the Botanical Society of Britain and Ireland (BSBI), the naming authority for English names of European native plants. It is not the place for E-Flora BC to dictate to us what our native plants should be called. If they could provide scientific evidence that we had got our name wrong, it would be reasonable for them to insist we change, but there is no evidence for that. The implication is that they think that people in Britain and Ireland are too ignorant or incompetent to be allowed to name their own native plants, which is very offensive.
     
  13. Margot

    Margot Renowned Contributor 10 Years

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    “It is not the place of E-Flora BC to dictate to us what our native plants should be called.” Humpf! The idea that common names should be as circumscribed as botanical names does not sit well with me and makes me happy that, in Canada, we are free to call plants – regardless of where they originate – whatever common names we like. That’s the fun of them in my opinion.

    I have to wonder if the choice of ‘Common Ivy’ and ‘Atlantic Ivy’ by the BSBI isn’t an attempt to deflect criticism of those invasive English and Irish expats.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    You think that's enough to make your renaming right, and therefore by default, ours wrong?
     
  15. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I thought @Margot was saying that you get to have your names, we get to have our names (names, not name), and no-one is wrong with common names. The term is merely a report of what people say.
     
  16. Margot

    Margot Renowned Contributor 10 Years

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    Even in Britain, there are many common names given to Hedera helix. The Woodland Trust lists: ivy, common ivy, Atlantic ivy, English ivy, British ivy and European ivy. https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/trees-woods-and-wildlife/plants-and-fungi/woodland-wildflowers/ivy/

    The Royal Horticultural Society gives 2 choices: common ivy and English ivy. https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/43091/Hedera-helix/Details

    It is not the place of the BSBI to dictate to common people what common names their native plants should be called – often the same names used for generations before them.

    Taxonomists can insist on correct botanical names; ordinary people have the right to choose whatever common names they prefer.

    This my last comment on the subject.
     

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