phellodendron/gymnocladus identification

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by jmac, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    I am trying to identify this tree that I saw on Salt Spring Island. I have gone through my books and the closest I can come to an identification is either Gymnocladus dioicus or Phellodendron amurense, although the sample of the leaf didn't key out (using Krussman) exactly to either of those trees. Can anyone help with identification?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,510
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Definitely not Gymnocladus dioicus, which has bipinnate leaves. Unfortunately, the pic is too blurred to make anything much of. Can you get a close-up pic of a shoot with some leaves?
     
  3. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Thank you Mr. Michael; that takes the Gymnocladus out of the running. I have attached a blown up section of the photograph, which I hope shows more leaf detail. I can't get another photograph without going back there, and that is not going to be for at least a month. Thanks for your help.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,372
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Cork tree seems possible, leaves and branching look similar in this picture.
     
  5. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Yes, it does display most of the characteristics of the Phellodendron; what is confusing me is that close up shots of the foliage I have found on the internet show a somewhat glossy leaf with a smooth leaf margin. This tree doesn't have a glossy leaf (it has a matt texture, and is possibly a little rough to the touch) and it has a very fine toothed margin. It could possibly be a species other than amurense?
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,372
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Or something completely different. What about the buds? And sign of fruits or flowers?
     
  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,510
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Leaflet number (12-15) strikes me as a little on the high side for Phellodendron (usually 7-13 leaflets), though not impossible. I'd not like to count out Toona sinensis (usually 10-25 leaflets), or even Juglans nigra yet, on these pics. At least I don't think it is Ailanthus altissima, fortunately.

    One useful point, it seems to have a mixture of leaves with, and without, terminal leaflets, though slightly more with than without.
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,372
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Abnormally twiggy if a walnut, but then cork trees are often more sparse also.
     
  9. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    Would it be some kind of Pterocarya, wingnut ?
     
  10. Eric La Fountaine

    Eric La Fountaine Contributor Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    235
    Location:
    sw USA
    Looks like Sorbus to me.
     
  11. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Hello again,
    I had to wait until I went to Salt Spring Island again to take more photographs. I was able to get some close up shots of the leaves and a dried up old flower last week. There was no sign of any fruit, nuts or seed pods. Can anyone identify the tree from these photographs? I have other images of the trunk and branching as well as further close up pictures of the leaves.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,510
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Turns out to be Ailanthus altissima after all!
     
  13. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Thanks for your reply Michael,
    I agree it does look very like Ailanthus but the leaf margins on Ailanthus are much more toothed than this tree and on this tree there is a larger tooth (I don't know what to call it) or wing on either side where the leaf meets the petiole. I know Ailanthus doesn't have that. I had to really size down the photographs to post them so unfortunately some of the detail is lost. I also saw some Ailanthus in full flower last week, but it seems this tree flowered several months ago. Any other ideas?
     
  14. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,609
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Shouldn't have to resize them that much - max dimensions is 1200px x 1200px - plus the forum software should be resizing your large images downwards for you... see this change from a couple hours ago
     
  15. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,609
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    I've fixed the problem - you should be able to upload your large images now and it will resize them.
     
  16. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Thanks Daniel; no resizing required now.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,020
    Likes Received:
    323
    Location:
    PERTHSHIRE. SCOTLAND.UK
    Try having a really close look at the leaf. Ailanthus Altissima leaves have 2 tiny little "pimples" at the base of each leaflet ,on the outer edge of the leaflet .These are oil glands or nectaries,and only Ailanthus have these. Does this help?
     
  18. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Another larger sized close-up.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    It doesn't seem to have the pimples, just two lobes where the leaf meets the petiole.
     
  20. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,510
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
  21. M. D. Vaden

    M. D. Vaden Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    843
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Beaverton, Oregon
    Snicker Snicker

    It's almost like "is this a dandelion?"
     
  22. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    Michael, I agree that the leaves and what was left of the flower both point to Ailanthus. I know Ailanthus quite well, and when I think of Ailanthus I picture a foliage effect similar to a staghorn sumac; long and drooping (see attached image). In the case of this tree the leaves are held almost horizontally to the sky (see attached image). Possibly this is an old and gnarly specimen grown in very dry conditions? The other thing that is curious is that there are no red seed clusters on this tree, and I know I saw what I know for sure was Ailanthus last week in a garden nearby, and it had the red seed clusters. Are there male and female plants? Do they not develop seeds or drooping leaves if the tree is grown in very dry conditions?
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,020
    Likes Received:
    323
    Location:
    PERTHSHIRE. SCOTLAND.UK
    Ailanthus has separate male and female trees
     
  24. Silver surfer

    Silver surfer Generous Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    4,020
    Likes Received:
    323
    Location:
    PERTHSHIRE. SCOTLAND.UK
    This an image of our Ailanthus . Hope it helps.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. jmac

    jmac Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    victoria, b.c.
    I zoomed in on the foliage close up I took and yes, I can see the same gland as in your photograph. Thanks to everyone who helped out with this thread. Now all I have to do is find a male Ailanthus and grow it in impoverished and dry conditions for a few decades...............................
     

Share This Page