Opinions please: Choosing a dissectum......

Discussion in 'Maples' started by McHoop, Jun 28, 2008.

  1. McHoop

    McHoop Member

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    Location:
    Indiana, US
    I'm looking for a new tree to place at the corner of my house. Morning sun with filtered afternoon. If it helps, I'm moving my Orange Dream from this spot as it is bleaching out and getting some burn due to afternoon sun.

    Anyway, I'm looking for a dissectum with priorities being fall color, vigor and something relatively out of the mainstream. I've been looking at Orangeola and Baldsmith.

    Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks.

    McHoop
     
  2. paxi

    paxi Active Member

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    Location:
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    I really like your two choices. The orangeola is supposed to be pretty sun hardy (I have one on the way for fall) and no problem so far with sun tolerance of my baldsmith. While it may not be considered out of the mainstream, I also don't think you could go wrong with a waterfall.
     
  3. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
    ROME Italy zone9/b
    about dissectum ,my preferite is Lions Hearth...
     
  4. mattzone5b

    mattzone5b Active Member

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  5. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    another good is dissectum "tricolor"variegated dissectum,very nice last arrived in my collection
     
  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    I suggest you spend some time on learning
    about the plant that you have interest in rather
    than basing what you may want solely on the
    name of it. If your Orange Dream is having
    some trouble in that setting then you may be
    required to know which dissectum you want
    there that will not also have the same issues.

    Orangeola and Baldsmith along with Octopus
    all came from pretty much the same grower
    in Oregon. I like all three of them used in a
    landscape but they are not all equal in what
    their growing needs are and what conditions
    they can be grown in. As an example, if you
    have some salt buildup issues in your soil,
    you may not want to have two of the three
    dissectums mentioned above. You may not
    want to have any of the variegated dissectums
    as you will have problems with salt burn.
    Cold tolerance or cold intolerance may be
    an issue for exposed plants and one of the
    three Maples above is more cold sensitive
    than the other two Maples are.

    Then when you decide on a name of a Maple
    you want, how do you know you will be getting
    the right plant of it? You are better off to see
    the Maple you want to have prior to buying it
    and setting it in the ground rather than watch
    it have some trouble growing there or perhaps
    succumb to the elements. It is foolish in the
    long run for you to go out and plant a one
    gallon sized tree (possibly a three year old
    grafted plant) in a landscape and think it will
    thrive for you. With that in mind you have
    pretty much eliminated most of the mail
    order catalog nurseries in that you may
    want to have a five gallon to plant in the
    landscape in Indiana but only a handful of
    mail order nurseries can send you a five
    to seven year old Maple. If you want to
    have a better chance of succeeding with
    your newest plant then you can contact
    two people in this forum that may be
    able to sell you a plant of the right size
    and right age to fill your landscape spot
    and give your Maple a much better chance
    of prospering there. In Maples buying on
    the cheap has its rewards in that we can
    buy more plants per dollar expense than
    we get from one plant that costs as much
    as three to four of the lesser plants. The
    issue for you is how many of those less
    inexpensive plants will live for you beyond
    ten years of you having them. The five gallon
    plant is much closer to the age in which it
    takes a lot more to kill the plant than cultural
    and growing issues can to harm the younger
    plants. The older plant generally has endured
    some of the stresses that the younger plants
    will have some trouble with.

    Morning sun with afternoon dappled shade,
    then you may want to consider two of the
    old dependable dissectums such as Ever
    Red and Ornatum. You cannot go wrong
    with either providing you buy these two
    Maples from a proven source for growing
    excellence. You have two people in this
    forum that have access to plants from such
    a grower. It is foolhardy to buy from anyone
    else unless you can see the plant prior to
    your purchase. The name Baldsmith loses
    a lot of its luster when and if you lose the
    plant before the Maple gets to the age
    whereby you can enjoy the coloration and
    stature of it year after year.

    Some areas can plant one gallon Maples into
    the ground and see them prosper later on but
    what we are seldom told of is the number of
    Maples that did not last long for them. Add
    in three throwaway Maples at $25 each that
    you just lost or will lose helps make that
    $100 expense for a five gallon look a whole
    lot better. Besides, nurseries think in terms
    that a much higher percentage of one to three
    year old grafted trees will not live long enough
    to see their seventh year. The five gallon Maple
    has already gotten there and is ready to go into
    the ground. When you get it up to ten years old
    it is generally what we did to the plant that harms
    it much more than the plant perishing due to the
    elements or in some cases due to disease.

    You do what you want but this forum does not
    have many members that have had Maples as
    long as that five gallon Maple will be in age.
    What will their survivability rate be with these
    plants once they start to lose a few of their
    Maples and then it hits home when they
    realize it was not all the plants fault for
    why they lost it. It was due to not knowing
    what not to do for that particular Maple.
    The name tells us nothing unless we are
    more than familiar with that plant but the
    plant in person even without a name can
    tell us much more. It does bother me to
    read how some people write in terms of
    how great a Maple is that has only been
    around for less than 10 years. How do
    they know anything about that plant yet?
    It is still too young to know what it will
    do later. There have been a lot of pretty
    dissectums, many of them were named
    in the late 80's and 90's that are no longer
    available for resale . What does that tell
    us about that pretty plant? It didn't make
    it, did not live long enough to become
    widespread in the nursery industry, yet
    people will still want it only because of
    the name of it. I've got a dissectum that
    can yield Spring growth palmate leaves
    and then those leaves will later become
    dissected on a cascading plant but since
    it is an old Maple no one would have
    interest in it but give that plant a new
    name and watch what interest there
    will be in it rather soon. "I want it"
    but you cannot have it. It is not for
    sale. Now try to find that old Maple
    in Oregon - good luck and yet in the early
    80's several growers had it available but
    only a few could keep it alive long enough
    to sell it, let alone have a 12-20 year old
    stock plant of it on hand for everyone to
    see.

    Today we have several Maples out and
    about that have no tried and true, proven
    stock plants but are three to five year
    old plants raided for their wood every
    year just to sell the liners because that
    is where the quick money is, in that not
    yet determined proven Maple with a new,
    catchy name.

    Orangeola, Baldsmith and Octopus have
    been around since the mid 80's. Now,
    tell me why they have not gained as
    much in popularity as they should have?
    It is not that they were not available to
    people in Oregon and later on to people
    in Washington and had a quality mail
    order source nursery involved to move
    plants, it is just that few people had
    good luck with those young plants but
    those people that did have good luck
    with those plants as they aged in years
    are generally not the ones we have to
    go to now to get one. Now, we have
    people getting wood in that will graft
    the plants, perhaps never having a
    stock plant of it, as there is no need
    to any more for quick online sales,
    that have become "plant pushers"
    just like some nursery people are,
    to accommodate their customers
    requests wanting the name of the
    Maple rather than selling a bona
    fide plant of it by that name.

    Jim
     
  7. mylesahead

    mylesahead Active Member

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    Location:
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    we have a waterfall its in the direct sun from early am till about 100pm holds up great we live on the south coast of mass and it gets pretty hot here . if you want to see apic of this tree we recently post one under the heading veridis or waterfall,it was a 20 gallon tree and we planted it in spring early april
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Most of the dissectums will do pretty well for
    most people. The problem is getting them up
    to the age in which they will more easily adapt.

    Novel plants of the dissectum group have always
    been some of the most sought after Maples.
    Personally, they are my favorite group of the
    palmatum type plants.

    The issue is that some of the newly named
    cultivars are quite interesting but they have
    not yet gone the test of time to show us what
    all they can do in a growing season. If I did
    not like Chantilly Lace, as an example, I would
    not already have one. I know what others are
    saying but this Maple is too young yet to get
    a feel for how it will grow in a variety of climates.
    I am not convinced yet that this Maple will
    make a standard landscape tree for most
    people. Time will tell us more.

    One thing that always has been apparent in
    some of the dissectum Maples is that some
    were meant to be standard nursery trade plants
    and others were meant more to be collection
    plants. The reason for the latter is that some
    people will have trouble growing it where they
    are. When we have to keep a Maple under
    shade cloth because of what it will do out in
    the sun or in dappled shade or from salts in
    the soil, then we have a Maple that probably
    never will develop into being a decent landscape
    plant. If the plant cannot do well in an array
    of growing situations then it will not become
    widespread in the nursery trade. Does not
    mean that we may not think the world of it
    where we are but others will not care for
    the Maple if they cannot keep it alive or
    have years of frustration growing it. It
    has always been that way that some
    dissectums grow better in some areas
    far better than they do in others. We
    are limited where I am to see several
    of the dissectums flourish. Does not
    mean that we cannot get lucky with
    a few of them but we have to make
    a little more of an effort with some of
    these just so they can hang in there
    for us until they get some age to them
    and better adapt for our growing conditions.
    We cannot always equate how a plant
    will do from one area to another and if
    we look around in Oregon we can see
    some of this pretty readily. Why some
    areas have trouble with some of the
    green dissectums and why other
    areas have problems with the reds.
    The variegated forms as a group
    have trouble no matter where they
    are grown with Ao shidare variegated
    probably being (has been the most
    consistent grower over the years)
    the most adaptable Maple in a
    landscape of the variegated group.

    A while back I mentioned how good
    some of the Red Dragons looked that
    were coming in from an Oregon grower
    to a retail nursery here. Compared to
    the Red Dragon that first came into
    California those plants were all far
    superior to anything we've ever had
    before. That makes a huge difference
    to see plants come in of the sizes ours
    in the ground are but we had some
    losses with those early proprietary
    plants to get those two or three plants
    out of eleven to get to those sizes of
    those Maples that came in years later.
    Time has its own value and when we
    see plants come in from another
    nursery that were of the same age
    as the trees we have left it makes
    us wonder why couldn't we have
    waited to buy one of those rather
    than endure the grief of losing eight
    of them over several years just to
    end up with three landscape plants
    that were equal or slightly better
    than what was coming into us
    now but we learned along the
    way what that Maple may require
    to grow well here and some of
    those truly marvelous plants from
    Oregon may have some of the
    same issues we learned the hard
    way once they are put into the
    ground is what I cautioned myself
    before I could buy one of them at
    $359 for one of the younger ones.
    The best plant had a retail price
    tag of $7,500 and felt at the time
    it was worth the money but it will
    have to be a select individual that
    would want it. A few of them that
    I know of have had some issues
    the last few years in the ground
    with salt burn, sun scorch and
    wind desiccation in the landscape
    around here develop already, just
    exactly what I cautioned myself
    over before I could pay the money
    and buy one of them.

    For Indiana find out or try to learn
    which dissectums have done well
    for most people that have had them.
    See a plant in the nursery that you
    may want and then ask around how
    that Maple does in your area. Don't
    be surprised or dismayed that others
    may not know but try to know that
    plants limitations before you buy it.
    Of the Orangeola, Baldsmith, Octopus
    and Chantilly Lace, as choices, I would
    prefer the Octopus for around here to
    go into a landscape. Why? It will
    adapt faster to our growing conditions
    than the others have (so far).

    Jim
     

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