New Maples

Discussion in 'Maples' started by krautz33, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. krautz33

    krautz33 Active Member 10 Years

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    This spring I was looking at ordering three new maples. I live in zone 6 Pa. The maples are Kogane Nishiki, Komon Nishiki and Tsuchigumo. Does have pictures or advise on these three maples.
     
  2. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here are links to your potential trees on the Esveld site. Komon nishiki and Tsuchigumo are very old cultivars, but as with many old cultivars, I don't think they are seen as much in cultivation as they should be. Kogane nishiki is listed as an introduction before 1970 from Japan in Maples for Gardens, but I cannot say more than that, but I would suspect it has a much longer history than that or has similarities to other cultivars grown in Japan for many years.

    I'll study them some more and give you my impression, but they look like great trees, but not flashy per se. Tsuchigumo seems to be the smallest, but a semi-dwarf at best.

    Where will you buy them from and what made you choose these 3 if you don't mind my asking?

    Tsuchigumo
    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/acptgu.htm

    Kogane nishiki
    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/acpkog.htm

    Komon nishiki
    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/acpkih.htm

    Best regards,
    Michael
     
  3. krautz33

    krautz33 Active Member 10 Years

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    I am not sure where I will purchase these trees from. I became interested in these trees through various pictures and written blurbs I have found on the internet. I started collecting maples a little over a year now and I am always looking for new trees. The dwarf to semi dwarf trees I find interesting. I think I read that Kogane Nishiki can get rather large, so I decided to ask for help. I was wondering if anyone around me has grown this tree, and what kind of luck they have had with it.

    Komon Nishiki seemed like it would be a good fit for my shade garden. I have an area that recieves about 4 hrs of late afternoon sun and I thought that this would be a good spot for that tree. I liked the slight varigation I saw on one of the pictures. Varigation in trees is an interestesting effect and I think it would look good with the back drop of the big leaves of my hydrangeas.

    Tsuchigumo reminded me of shishigashira. Shishigashira is my favorite Japanese Maple. So I wanted something similiar.
     
  4. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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  5. krautz33

    krautz33 Active Member 10 Years

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    Thank you very much for getting back to me so quickly with the info. I have to rethink the trees that I was going to order. I have a sagara nishiki in a one gallon. I transplanted the tree to a 15 gallon this fall. I hope it lives.

    The other tree looks really awsome. (hoshi kuzo) Maybe I should look into it as well. Last fall I was able to get a 15 gallon Otome Zakura tree at an end of the year sale. The color on that tree was worth the buy. I put some pictures of it in the picture section. I think I should have placed the tree in a different position.

    I have been looking at purchasing a Shin Deshojo. The color is brilliant. I guess there are still so many trees I would like to collect.

    Thanks Again,
    Mike
     

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  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Kogane nishiki will develop into being a
    large tree over time. 25-30' specimens
    are not uncommon for this tree in 20
    years of being planted in the ground.
    This Maple is characterized by the
    yellowish colored tips to the green
    leaf lobes in the Spring.

    Personally, I would want to give Komon
    nishiki more light than 4 hours of late
    afternoon sun. The Maple will develop
    a Fu, a sunago fu but in order for you to
    see it you will want to give this Maple
    more light. Fu's require ample light for
    us to distinguish it from a normal
    variegation, in this case the golden-
    yellow splotches of color in the leaves.
    Sagara nishiki may do better for you in
    your shade garden as long as it does not
    get intense afternoon sun to scorch the
    creamy-yellow variegated areas of the
    leaves. I like both Maples but am more
    partial to Komon nishiki with the smaller
    sized and darker shaded green leaves as
    well as it having the Fu (sand sprinkle).
    We generally do not see the high yellow
    forms of Sagara nishiki in the US like
    there are in Japan.

    Tsuchigumo will grow a little taller over
    time than most forms of Shishigashira
    will, depending on how much light it gets.
    Tsuchigumo in most areas of Oregon can
    handle direct sun rather well. Should not
    be too much of a problem where you are
    growing this one in full sun. I do like the
    crinkly leaf on this Maple. As a companion
    plant for the more upright, willowy forms
    of Shishigashira, Tsuchigumo is a very
    good choice.

    Jim
     
  7. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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  8. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Mike,

    I'll toss in a vote for the Shin. It's currently one of my very favorites. Mine is only two or three years old and thus far has been restricted to a container on the patio. If it continues to do as well as it did last summer, it may never get to leave the spotlight and move out into common garden soil. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking that I need a pair of Shin Deshojos rather than a single specimen.

    The tree is known for its spring coloration -- it's nothing short of awesome. But I was just as impressed with its growth, durability, and fresh leaf appearance throughout a dry, hot summer. My Shin Deshojo looked as good in mid- to late-summer as many of my other JMs looked in the height of spring flush. A counterpart with similar attributes -- the Beni Maiko -- was lackluster and "frail" in comparison.

    Bryan

    Disclaimer: Results may vary. My Shin Deshojo is probably not really a Shin Deshojo and my Beni Maiko is probably not really a Beni Maiko. Just wanted to remove this common, incendiary argument prior to getting flamed for saying something that someone else doesn't agree with.
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    This forum is not the other online Maple forum. No
    one is going to "flame" you in this forum for giving
    your impressions of a Maple, whether your sentiments
    are the norm or not. The larger problem to me is not
    enough people will tell what they think or give their
    thoughts on the Maples they like and/or do not like
    as much. We all have our opinions but there are times
    when some people feel their popularity in a forum is
    such that they can write whatever they want, seemingly,
    unchallenged and when they go way over the line is
    when I am willing on rare occasions to bring them back
    down to Earth if it is indeed possible, even if it means
    my immediate departure from that said forum the instant
    I make my post.

    I made a disclaimer a long time ago in this forum
    in regards to what I felt was a sensitive issue as
    I was not sure how the eyes looking inward from
    the outside would take my sentiments about their
    product and my limited perspective on its practical
    application to Horticulture.

    When a person is being genuine or is trying to help
    someone else then there will not be any real problems
    in this forum. We all have the right to politely disagree
    with each other without repercussions from others.
    When we are trying to learn about a particular plant
    there are bound to be areas of disagreement or we
    simply have not been learning much at all about
    Maples.

    Shindeshojo is a nicer Maple than Beni maiko is.
    That is exactly what my opinion is also. There
    are two forms that I know of for Shindeshojo.
    The Japanese form that Mr. Koto Matsubara
    introduced into the US develops a Fu, a sand
    sprinkle, in the leaves starting in late Spring.
    I am not sure any of you' have seen that form.
    The Oregon form, as we used to call it, is the
    Maple that most people will have. If we were
    to look at the Vertrees second edition Japanese
    Maple
    book on page 137 we will see two photos
    of this Maple which should confuse us. The photo
    on the left described as Summer color clearly shows
    pink coloration in the leaf margins as well as a
    mottling of pink in the rest of the leaf, very much
    like Masukagami will show. I've not ever seen that
    coloring in the Oregon form but have seen it in the
    Japanese form. The photo on the right shows the
    brilliant red color in the Spring which is almost the
    same color that Beni maiko also will have in the
    early Spring but Beni maiko will not hold that red
    color long but will about a month later turn the red
    greens, bronze greens and with some pink greens
    much like Deshojo will. It is the size of the leaves
    with a small hint of a leaf crinkle of the Beni maiko
    is what separates it from Deshojo, Shindeshojo,
    Seigai, Akaji nishiki and Bonfire. The Oregon
    form of Shindeshojo is a stronger grower than the
    Japanese form is. Also, the Japanese form is more
    of a compact grower and will grow wider than tall
    whereas the Oregon form of Shindeshojo will grow
    more so as an upright, taller and willowy tree than
    the Japanese form. Beni maiko will grow very much
    similar to the Oregon form of Shindesjojo and will
    grow much faster when young than it will once it
    gets to about 8 years old when it starts to slow down
    and fill in. It is when Beni maiko slows down in its
    growth is when we started to see it falter for us. The
    leaves start to shrink down in size and become much
    more susceptible to hot winds and will burn up rather
    easily for us here. The problem that we saw is that
    new buds are not set readily on the scorched areas
    unlike some other Maples but instead we get twig die
    back on Beni maiko. If the plant gets too scorched it
    will not produce enough new wood to sustain itself
    very well and will die on us after a second severe
    scorching. Shindeshojo does much better for us but
    even with that Maple we should give it some afternoon
    protection here from the hot winds or we will see it
    scorch also but instead of twig die back we will get
    some new bud set and we will get to see the red
    coloring allover again but this Maple also should
    not scorch twice in a year as then we will see some
    twig die back but the plant is much more resilient
    than Beni maiko has been for us.

    I agree Shindeshojo is the better plant of the two.

    Jim
     
  10. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    There's another online Maple forum?
     
  11. chumasero

    chumasero Active Member

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  12. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Looks like you found the other forum:) I think you will find the two forums distinctly different, if you choose to participate in or view both forums.

    Here are a couple of photos since I had them hanging around. All are of young trees, so we don't benefit much from possible mature characteristics or overall form, but a view of the leaves might be helpful.
    You will see Beni Maiko in early may, already having lost a good deal of it spring color and then another photo of the same tree in early September frontlit by the setting sun in the West. While the tree is not spectacular in color, the hue it gains from the setting sun makes this one of my favorite photos.

    The only Shindeshojo photo I have is it set next to a form of Bonfire. It is the Oregon form of Shindeshojo and has been difficult for me to grow. I think that generally it is a cultivar that does well, but the specimen I have has been nothing but trouble. Both Beni Maiko and Shindeshojo are somewhat frail and in pots, they have been quite slow growing for me or at least hard to establish. In comparision, my specimen of Bonfire has been quite healthy and reliable.

    I suppose it speaks to the need to be able to view multile specimens of the same plant to truly know whether or not it is the cultivar that it characteristically troublesome or just a subject that lacks vigor. In comparision to the trees that originally started in this thread, I would say that Beni Miako, Shindeshojo, and Bonfire are a good deal more ornamental in quality and would not serve quite the same purpose as those Mike originally inquired about. The Shindeshojo might look nice planted in close proximity to one of the large japonicums he planted last spring.

    Michael
     

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  13. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I did not write that Shindeshojo was a strong grower
    in comparison to other Japanese Maples. Shindeshojo
    will do better in a cooler locale than here, so will Beni
    maiko. For a Zone 6 Pennsylvania, both should make
    nice landscape plants but we need keep our perspectives
    in order as neither of these two Maples will be a focal
    point in a garden setting by their growth habits. They are
    better considered accent trees in a landscape.

    Seigai, Akaji nishiki and Bonfire is a subject for another
    day perhaps as I know first hand all three forms exist.
    They are quite similar but we can tell them apart by their
    seasonal appearance and their growth characteristics.

    Mike, passing around names is fine but I think you may
    be better off to show the setting or location where you
    want a Maple to be planted. Give people some ideas on
    what you want for a Maple such as color, the ultimate
    size, how large a tree you want to plant considering the
    size of your other Maples and what textural effect you
    may want to accomplish. Having an idea of what we want
    for a specific spot will greatly enhance others abilities
    to sort through a variety of Maple names to help you.

    There have been a rash of new Maples come about since
    the mid 80's to now. Some people have been following
    them along but I just do not feel comfortable that you
    will get a good "read" on how those Maples will do for
    you. We've seen plenty of reports on some of these Maples
    in how great they are to some people but those reports are
    in the initial, juvenile stages of these plants development.
    Long term we really do not have a clue how they will hold
    up over time. In select gardens they should do well, better
    even still in almost can't miss growing climates. No one
    talks about these Maples in climates that are more harsh
    to grow in until people start losing some plants and then
    we hear the variety of excuses as to why the plants perished.
    I just say, "bah", we should have had a better idea in advance
    of what we were up against in trying to grow that Maple.
    If we better know the plants limitations we can have a greater
    chance of being successful. You guys will learn these things
    5-10 years or more down the road.

    Jim
     
  14. hanl

    hanl Active Member

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    Would you please tell me where do I get a Shindeshojo maple? I really need one of the red foliage maple tree on my front yard. And I heard that Shindeshojo is really nice one. Thanks! :)
    So far I really don't like Coral Bark which is easy to die back. I have 2 already died last month.
     
  15. sasquatch

    sasquatch Active Member

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    Greer Gardens in Eugene, Oregon had some really nice bigger ones (2-3 ft with at least 1/2 inch trunks)
     
  16. hanl

    hanl Active Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I did order online yesterday at Mountainmaples. It is much more expensiver than Greer Gardens, but their customer services is very excellent. Hopefully, they don't let me disapointed when the tree arrives .
     
  17. sasquatch

    sasquatch Active Member

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    I got a Seiryu from Mountain Maples. Since Greer Gardens is my hometown nursery, I buy 95% of my stuff there, since I prefer to select my trees in person instead of entrusting it to others, but I got the Mountain Maple tree as a gift, and am happy with it.

    Good Luck
     
  18. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    hanl,

    Did you ever get the Shindeshojo? Is it the maple you wanted? The reason I ask is that Shindeshojo is a green leaf cultivar that has brilliant pink/red spring growth then the leaves transition to green and then fire-engine red in the fall. As I describe it to customers it gives you 6 months of color. Thanks, Sam
     
  19. hanl

    hanl Active Member

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    Yes, I have received my Shindeshojo on late of September. I have got a chance to plant it yet, it is still on my garage, and all the leaves are fallen down. Because, It was snowing so early this year. So far, I like the structure of it, I hope it give me the beautiful color next Spring and Fall. I will take a picture of it when the time comes.
     
  20. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    hanl,

    That would be great. I would love to know how it does in Utah. Do you have any other maples growing at this time? Sam
     

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