Need Help IDing This Japanese Maple Please

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Layne Uyeno, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi all,

    I visited a local nursery yesterday and found this unusual tree, but I am at a lost to ID it. I've checked online, but could not fine anything like it.

    The first pic is of it on my balcony next to the rest of my modest Japanese maple collection. It's the tallest tree. On the lower left is a Shin deshojo and on the lower right is a Tama hime. Both are in 1 gal. containers. The Mystery maple is in a 2 gal. container.

    As you can see in the close up pics the leaves are palmate and very tiny. The new branches and petioles are bright red. The trunk leading all the way down to the graft is lime green.

    The leaves at the top which received the most sun exposure at the nursery are tinged with red tips and edges. The leaves at the bottom are mostly green. And, for the most unusual aspect of this tree I think, the leaves are varigated. Sort of a yellow green and medium green persist on almost all the leaves. Also, the leaves are rather thick as compared with the Shin deshojo and Tama hime.

    The tree is very sun tolerant as it has virtually no leaf burn despite being in rather strong sun at the nursery. If anybody can ID this tree I'd be really grateful.

    Thanks,

    Layne
     

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  2. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    A Wild Guess

    Perhaps, maybe 'Wilson's Pink Dwarf'. Just a wild guess.
     
  3. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Elmore,

    Thanks for the reply. I've been searching online and the description given by MountainMaples.com for a Tennyo no hoshi seems to match exactly what I have. However, the picture they have and others of Tennyo no hoshi I've seen online don't quite match what I have. I do know that cultivars can look somewhat different depending on climate, weather, sun exposure, etc. so maybe it is a Tennyo no hoshi, but I'd like to be positive in the ID.

    I had this bright idea earlier today that I'd wait for the Fall colors and that would help me ID the tree. However, two online sources say Tennyo no hoshi is red during Fall and two others say yellow! *sigh*.... From what I gather Vertrees registered the cultivar back in '85 after he saw it in some guy's collection in Japan. Perhaps it's in Vertrees' book, but I don't yet have it. I'm reasoning the money I'd spend buying the book I could have bought one maybe two more maples! :-)

    Any body else out there want to take a stab at IDing this maple. A lot of the maples at this nursery had tags missing. :-( It does have a graft scar so I'm reasonably certain it's a cultivar and not a seedling.

    Again, any and all help is greatly appreciated,

    Layne
     
  4. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    'Tennyo-no-hoshi' ?

    Layne, in reading about 'Tennyo-no-hoshi' in the latest edition of Japanese Maples it describes it as very similar to 'Ao kanzashi' in habit, leaf shape and variegation. I have 'Ao kanzashi' and it does not look a lot like your plant. Although looking at your picture to the far right I do see that variegated portion of the leaf lobes. Here is a picture of my little 'Ao kanzashi' grafted in the summer of 2002, photo made 6-9-03.
     

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  5. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    'Beni maiko' maybe?
     
  6. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Acerbob,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I honestly don't think Beni maiko could be it. What's throwing me for a loop is that all the suggestions and even my idea that it is a Tennyo no hoshi is that all the pics I've seen the leaf veins are cream/light green whereas my tree has pink/bright red veins...even on leaves that didn't receive much sun.

    Check this pic that I also took but didn't post. It's of a couple bottom branches that didn't get much sun. If you look closely: Some leaves have slight, almost imperceptible varigation. The leaves in the upper righthand corner and bottom center have red veins. Most of the leaves in the upper lefthand corner have red veins except for a couple.

    It's kind of reassuring I'm not the only one stymied. :-) While it's frustrating it's also kind of fun doing some detective work and getting everyone's input and help. This tree did get A LOT of sun at the nursery. Perhaps after it leafs out next Spring it'll look more like one of the pics online I've seen as it's getting much less sun. For now though I'll just enjoy all the colors of this tree. :-)

    Thanks,

    Layne
     

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  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Layne:

    It is not so much that important to get the name of a plant
    we cannot see at various stages right but to at least get the
    number of possibilities down to where we can in time figure
    out what the plant may be named if it indeed does have a
    name.

    Many consumers as well as nursery people automatically
    assume a Maple is a named variety when we see that the
    plant was grafted. If it is grafted it has to have a name,
    right? Not necessarily and in many cases, especially with
    Bloodgood, for example, the grafted plant did not come
    from wood from a Bloodgood but generally came from a
    seedling instead. The one thing we all have to learn the
    hard way and it takes time and seeing a lot of Maples is to
    know what a plant is named before we ever buy it. I've seen
    so many misnamed Maples that I automatically assume the
    worst and I do wish I did not have to do things that way.

    Now to your Maple. When I see a Maple in a nursery
    without a label I feel there was a reason for it, unlike the
    Dr. Seuss thread whereby the nursery people are either
    being downright stupid or they are playing someone else's
    game. For the record, Elmore has the right idea with what
    he posted that the name came from another plant entirely
    and it is not a Maple. I suppose that a person may have
    grown a seedling, grafted it and called it Dr Seuss but I
    seriously doubt that did happen. If the originator of that
    Maple wants to tell me different here is your chance fella.
    Knock yourself out!

    Okay, you bought a Maple that appears to not have a name
    tag and since it appears to you to have been grafted it has to
    have a name, which it may not have a name as of yet but the
    plant came from a nursery so it has to be legit. Well, it may
    be legitimate and it most likely isn't. For us to track down
    a possible name we will have to see this plant during the
    Summer, the Fall and especially the Spring to take note of
    the coloration. Then we will need to see it for a few years
    to know if the color holds true to what we are seeing for a
    variegation today. Harusame shows some variegation on a
    few leaves when it is young but will green out in about 3-5
    years and then will stay green. Go look at people's stock
    plants that have had this Maple for a long time and tell me
    how many leaves are variegated? The point being is that
    I've seen Maples that were variegated when they were young
    and then lost the variegation as the tree grew older. I've also
    seen Maples that had no variegation for 12-15 years, later
    develop a strong variegation for 3-5 years and then die on
    us.

    Anything that anyone states for a name to this point almost
    becomes absurd as we do not know enough about this Maple
    to know if it is a named variety or was it just a seedling
    selection that was grafted and later sold to the nursery as a
    nameless variety of Japanese Maple. A case in point is the
    old Red Laceleaf Maple designation that was applied to all
    other lace leaf non Burgundy Lace Maples until Sherwood
    Flame was found in Oregon. Red Dissectum had a general
    meaning also for a long time in which any red cultivar not
    named or had a missing label would be sold as being a Red
    Dissectum. Today, we have people making up names as they
    go along. Now, no one really knows what Pendula Julian
    looks like unless they buy one from a grower that has had
    that variety for a long while. In today's world a long while
    seems to be 2-3 years and we assume that the person bought
    the right plant to begin with. In my estimation it is much
    more likely that the grower did not buy the right Maple, so
    the illusion continues on and will persist for who knows how
    long.

    Reality sucks and those of us that have been around in Maples
    for a long while can tell others a few of the do's and the don'ts.
    The best advice I can give is to buy a Maple that you like
    regardless of the name on the label if there is one. I strongly
    suggest you buy one of the editions of the Japanese Maple books.
    I've had my copy real soon after I bought my first Japanese Maple
    22 years ago, a Koto Ito Komachi. An old friend of ours that is a
    renown glass book author told us to buy the book instead of buying
    the glass piece referenced in the book. I thought he was just trying
    to sell us his book but I later learned why the book is so important
    and that is, so we will minimize our mistake purchases. With just
    one precluded mistake with us having the book, the book more than
    pays for itself. Dr. Cohen was right on the mark in more ways than
    one.

    You are doing the right thing to try to track down this Maple and
    do not give up but you will want to have the Japanese Maple book
    as a handy companion for you to do some serious detective work
    on this Maple. I can be wrong but I feel time will tell us more of
    what we need to know about this Maple of yours than what we are
    trying to piece together today.

    Good luck,

    Jim
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Layne:

    What has to be eliminated is the guessing. I know people
    are trying to help but guessing is not the right way to do
    things. Either people know what your Maple is or they
    do not know. If they do not know, it is probably more
    productive to remain silent. You cannot do much work
    on your own without a copy of one of the editions of the
    Japanese Maple books on hand.

    When you can show us what this Maple looks like in the
    Fall and the Spring is when I will let you know what Maple
    you have as I will be working on it myself. I already have
    a strong suspicion but I'd like to have more time to know
    for sure, along with seeing how this Maple progresses
    over time. If someone in the meantime gets it right I
    will confirm it for you. How's that?

    Jim
     
  9. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    I'm not certain I understand why guessing has to be eliminated. It seems to me that the back-and-forth process is a learning one that is forcing Layne to examine the plant critically and really define the subtleties of its properties for the others on this forum, while everyone else reading this can learn about the difficulties of determining an exact name for a Japanese maple when its attributes throughout the entire year are unknown (and even then can be difficult).

    From a personal standpoint, I'd prefer people on the forums guess and be wrong (with an explanation of why) than to have people remain silent for fear of being wrong. I do have to qualify that by saying educated guesses are better in narrowing down possibilities. My thoughts on this are based on my personal experiences - I've made mistakes and it's helped me to learn to check my assumptions before posting (a recent example - in the plant ID forum, someone from Colorado posted about a Veratrum - I immediately thought V. viride and started to post my reply to that effect, but then thought, "Well, maybe it is different in Colorado. Do I really know what that is?") or to couch my responses with hedges when certainty is impossible due to lack of knowledge (either on my part or the unknown variables in the question).

    I'm curious to understand the why behind your assertion. Could you give your reasons or feelings behind it? Then I can determine whether I need to change my notions or not.
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Daniel:

    Most of the time I really do like to read the suggestions from
    others. I think in most cases they are quite helpful. The why
    is simple from my point of view and it entails a little history
    in regards to Tennyo no hoshi. Mr. Vertrees did not get his
    hands on that Maple from someone in Japan. Technically,
    the plant that Mr. Vertrees had was later found to be another
    Maple altogether. The "Oregon" form that came about later
    for Tennyo no hoshi is a very small leafed dwarf with 5-7
    lobes of which the central lobe and the 2 smallest side lobes
    are of regular shape but the others are noticeably irregular,
    quite curved to be exact. The color of the petioles are green,
    not red and the largest plant I've ever seen of the Oregon
    form is no taller than 2 1/2' high. The Maple is a strong
    variegate in color, a highly colored creamy white with very
    little green in the leaf at any time of the year. If you look at
    the Butterfly pic I showed of the Oregon form you will see
    that some of the leaves are almost a solid creamy white. That
    is what Tennyo no hoshi does indeed look like in comparison
    but the leaves are quite small in size, almost the same exact
    size as a Beni hime. During the early Summer a very fine
    sand sprinkling (Fu) starts to develop and can be seen on the
    leaves as the creamy white fades to an off white but the sand
    sprinkle is a rust color.

    I may be the only person in this forum to have seen this
    Maple and I also saw the plant that Mr. Vertrees first had
    and wrote about in his book and they are worlds apart.

    Ao kanzashi to the old guard in Japan is Butterfly. Beni
    maiko is not a variegate at all.

    You are right to question me about my being a "big meanie"
    but I could not let the current scenario go on as it was. It
    had gone too far as no one had come close to naming what
    Layne has and it could be that we may not be sure of what
    he has for a long while. There was a variety that was long
    ago seemingly lost, about 15 years ago, that was never
    officially named but I know where it originated from and
    what that grower called it. Mr. Vertrees was shown the
    Maple and the consensus was to watch it for the same
    reasons I used, to see if the variegation holds or not. The
    form that I remember did not hold its variegation after the
    3rd year and it was a seedling from a form of Orido nishiki
    that has the gold stripes in the bark. After the 3rd year in
    more than one location the Maple would develop a faint
    pink in with the green based leaf giving the false/positive
    impression that it could be a Wilson's Pink Dwarf which
    is another Maple altogether. The Maple I saw should be
    a semi-dwarf and gets to about the same size as a large
    Beni komachi will, somewhere between 9-12' tall at its
    maximum but we never saw the Maple get over 6' tall
    before it vanished right before all of us that either had it
    or knew about it. There were only about 8 people
    including 2 in Japan that knew anything about that Maple.
    The crazy thing is that one did come in from Japan but it
    was seedling selection from Orido nishiki.

    I would have liked to keep all of the above a secret so it
    is my fault for my involvement in this thread. Still, the
    bantering of bogus information around as a supposition
    based on nothing conclusive without aid of a copy of the
    Japanese Maple book involving an old friend of mine is
    reason enough to have me defend him. Rather than do
    that openly by telling Layne he is way off base in regards
    to a matter he knows nothing about, I helped put the
    kabbosh or so I thought on this thread rather than divulge
    what I know to be true. All the while knowing full well
    that no one will believe me about Mr. Vertrees and Tennyo
    no hoshi. He originally got that Maple and the Oregon
    form of Tennyo no hoshi from a certain someone else in
    Canby, Oregon, rather than from someone in Japan. Now,
    even after the retraction of the name years later by Mr.
    Vertrees we still have the old form in the nursery trade
    and I doubt any of us know what the rightful name of that
    plant is but there are people still around in Japan that might
    be able to tell us, as it was some of them telling J.D. about
    that original Maple of his is what convinced Mr. Vertrees
    to change his thinking on that Maple.

    All the best,

    Jim
     
  11. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I forgot to mention Okukuji nishiki which is another
    variegated small leafed dwarf that is most similar in
    its coloration to Tennyo no hoshi. There are marked
    differences in the sizes and the shapes of the leaves
    themselves. Also, there is no apparent Fu in Okukuji
    nishiki that I know of.

    The original Tennyo no hoshi did come from Japan
    as Don Kleim brought it in back in 1977 and then
    outletted it to two people in Oregon. Don never
    did graft the Maple but a few others did but not
    with a lot of success. It has been since 1992 that
    I've seen the Maple in Oregon and I do not know if
    the gentleman I know well still has it. The old plant
    at Henderson Experimental Gardens perished around
    1996. The Japanese here in the US and in Japan knew
    all about this Maple long before anyone here knew
    much of anything. Don brought it in as another name
    entirely but later on it was confirmed by select others
    that the Tennyo no hoshi name is what the Japanese
    called the Maple.

    I've gone my limit on this Maple. I know others
    are still selling the former Tennyo no hoshi as
    described by Mr. Vertrees and that is perfectly
    fine, they will not have to worry about that.

    If people want to talk Maples then talk Maples,
    darn it. There are a lot of eyes out there that
    are watching what goes on in this forum. When
    we talk names of people we have to be careful
    as even I told a few somethings that is not going
    to go over very well with other Maple enthusiasts.
    I've tried to give some background before in some
    threads and referenced people that knew much
    of what I wrote about Tennyo no hoshi. I did
    not learn this on my own. I learned it from
    others and even when I get uptight that there
    is little desire to know about the goings on
    of the past, the rifts between certain people
    and those that were accommodating to everyone
    that had a passion for Maples, it seems to me
    that some of the history of the Maples, how
    they got here, when they came in and who
    got some of them probably should stay with
    me. I am just not seeing any real interest
    in others wanting to know that information.
    People either feel they know it already or
    they just do not care to know anything more
    about it and that is fine with me now. I am
    finally at peace with it all after all of this
    time and I've had 8+ years of inner turmoil
    to get over knowing I was perhaps the last
    bastion that could tell the story from various
    US Japanese Maple pioneers viewpoints.
    I never did want to be in that position.

    Good luck to all of you. Time for a break.
    I'll leave you guys alone for a while as I'd
    rather deal with "my baby" my original love
    in plants, the Fruit Trees. That is the one
    subject that always makes me feel right
    at home.

    If you feel an apology is in order then I will
    apologize to you Layne. Keep growing
    Maples!

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  12. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Jim,

    Absolutely no apology is necessary! What you've written was ALL very enlightening. One of the things that attracted me to this maple "thing" was the incredible variations in the leaves, branches, bark, etc. Most other types of plants, like orchids, roses, fruit tree, etc. are admired for their different flowers or fruit. To me that's "easy". No offense to you rose and orchid collectors out there. My grandmother raises orchids and I love visiting local rose gardens and can spend hours there. But, as far as collecting roses I'm only interested in a couple whereas with Japanese maples I want to almost collect them all! The only other type of plant species that holds my interest as much as maples, and for the same reasons, are cacti and succulents. Sometimes the variations are huge and sometimes they're subtle....like Murasaki kiyohime and Murasaki hime. I'm still trying to work on that one. Even the names are subtle.

    As far as Vertrees dicovering Tennyo no hoshi in Japan and registering it I read that somewhere online, but can't remember where. If I do remember I'll email you, Jim.

    As you wrote in a previous post:

    "When you can show us what this Maple looks like in the
    Fall and the Spring is when I will let you know what Maple
    you have as I will be working on it myself. I already have
    a strong suspicion but I'd like to have more time to know
    for sure, along with seeing how this Maple progresses
    over time. If someone in the meantime gets it right I
    will confirm it for you. How's that?"

    It's a deal. I'll keep you and every one here posted and hopefully with the good help here I can ID this Mystery Maple.

    Thanks Jim (and everyone else too) for you insight and help,

    Layne
     
  13. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    jeez Jim, how about you just cut the answer to a few sentences in stead of leaving the Maple chat to us common folk? :)



    I am kidding of course. It would be a shame to see so much knowledge and experience get left out of the conversations here in the Maple forum.
     
  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Layne: I'll be glad to help out if I can with this
    Maple.

    Paul: I have not left the Maple forum nor will I be
    leaving. I just would prefer others to come in and
    voice their opinions more without interference from
    me on certain issues. ID's are a problem anyway as
    we cannot see the Maples long enough to know for
    sure what we are seeing from one or a few pics of it.

    I'll leave people alone with the ID's of Maples for a
    long while unless I am asked for help. I over stepped
    my bounds, was wrong in what I did and I know it.
    The only good thing about all of this is that I will
    personally help with this Maple. That may be good
    or perhaps not but now I have a vested interest in the
    Maple that I may not have had otherwise.

    Jim
     
  15. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Mr. Shep:
    I live in southern oregon and purchased the a Tennyo no hoshi from a local nursery last fall. It was a relatively old tree by nursery standards and now stands 5' tall with about a 3' circumference and about 2" trunk caliper. It is night now, so a picture of the tree was out, but I was so intrigued by your statements that I thought I would post some leaf pictures.
    Not that it matters a great deal, but this tree seems to match the description in "Japanese Maples," 3rd ed. but certainly has outgrown the dwarf you mention in your post(2.5'). The dwarf form being the one no longer cultivated?? and the larger tree with mostly green leaves and white margins (some pink with age) being the common cultivar sold as Tennyo no hoshi?

    Just intrigued and would like to hear you clarification if you have time.
    Thank,
    Michael
     

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  16. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    The Tennyo no hoshi as described in the 3rd Edition
    Japanese Maple book is the same plant as what Mr.
    Vertrees had. This Maple is better characterized as
    being a semi-dwarf as it can get up to 9-12 feet tall
    in time in the right locations. I believe there is one
    that size in Holland right now. What will help is to
    see some pictures of Tennyo no hoshi in the next
    edition of the Japanese Maple book. What would
    be far better is to let others see in picture form what
    the Maple looks like in the Spring, late Spring or
    early Summer, late Summer and then in the Fall.

    Mr. Vertrees to my knowledge never had the "true"
    dwarf form but it is still being cultivated. The leaf
    size is less than 1/2" in length, real small, dainty
    leaves with noticeably more creamy white variegation
    in the edges of the leaves with only a just hint of pink
    in the Spring only. The reason I mentioned Okukuji
    nishiki is that the dwarf form of Tennyo no hoshi
    from Japan has leaves about the same size in length
    and has almost the same growth habit but is a slower
    grower than Okukuji nishiki is. Another thing to
    mention is that both plants can have high colored
    variegation in that in some leaves there is almost
    no green coloration but are seemingly totally
    variegated.

    In contrast to Layne's Maple look at the red veination,
    on most leaves light pink margins of the leaves, the
    distinct color of the petioles and the subtleties of pink
    in the leaf itself elsewhere. Tennyo no hoshi, even in
    the Spring when we might see some pink, does not get
    that strong or characteristic shade of pink ever in the
    leaf as Layne's Maple has. Granted, in many Maples
    the petioles at first will be red or appear reddish in color,
    some can even be pink. As the leaves progress in age
    during the growing season the petioles will in many
    cases turn to green instead.

    I know of a grower that raised a seedling just like
    Layne's which was quite similar to the form that
    came in from Japan called 'Akashima'. There is no
    documentation on Akashima to my knowledge
    outside of Japan but it did originate from a well
    known nurseryman in Kyoto. Akashima was
    imported into the US in 1977. The seedling like
    Layne's did not hold its variegation after the second
    year but it did keep the red veination, lightly pink
    colored margins and well as some other areas of
    pink in the leaf, even subtle tones of pink during
    the Summer.

    Lets' just say for now that I may have found out that
    a certain someone I know from the past may be
    propagating Maples as the unnamed seedling was
    his dads. His father was one of Don Kleim's brother's
    in law. If the Maple is the same one, then I know all
    about it as I was good friends with his father, George,
    also. George had several seedlings that had a lot of
    promise including one off of his "big Shishi", that is
    what we all called his Shishigashira, that had red leaves.
    He also had a variegated seedling from Whitney Red
    that should have been introduced into the nursery
    trade. George also had a seedling show variegation
    from Shaina as well.

    I know his son well enough but had lost track of him
    for the last 6-7 years after all of the Maples had been
    moved to near San Luis Obispo from Visalia a couple
    of years after George passed away.

    Jim
     
  17. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks Jim:

    I appreciate the clarification. The Tennyo no hoshi I have had for just a year was quite a strange find for the nursuries around Medford, Oregon. The particular nursery always seems to have large specimens or otherwise unique plants for the area--maybe he buys end-of-season clearance trees from a wholesaler. Last season there were a couple large Tennyo no hoshi, Seriyu, Omure yama, and a few other very common cultivars, but at just over $100 each for a 5ft semi-dwarf tree, I was shocked.
    I had never seen the much variety around here and never the Tennyo, so we bought it. I have always wondered about it and to see its pretty vigorous vase-shaped growth (especially in width) now 5-6ft tall and 4ft wide, it is really becoming a beautiful tree. The leaves in the upper canopy of the tree burn some in the hot dry heat of the valley, but many hold up well and I hope to see a nice fall display.

    I second you statement in hoping that the next edition of Vertrees contains more photos, and maybe some seasonal arrays of cultivars, much like I think I have seen in another maple reference.


    But not to further detract from the original thread, thanks again.
    Michael
     
  18. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Hi Michael:

    There was and still is, I think, a Rock Garden specialist
    near Ashland that used to have several varieties of dwarf
    and semi-dwarf Maples. I never stopped by for a visit
    but I once knew who he was getting all of his Maples
    from.

    For resale and retail nurseries in Oregon I would always
    inquire as to where they got their Maples. I want to know
    who the grower was. Still, we have a nursery here that
    has been getting large sized Maples from Oregon for
    years and last year got in some large sized Maples from
    a leading grower in Oregon. I would say that over half
    of the trees were mislabeled which is good for me if I
    want them but I was rather dismayed that a nursery I
    knew well from the past would have such labeling
    problems.

    Prices - what can I say? Any more if a person wants a
    nice sized 15 gallon plant they are going to pay somewhere
    between $89.95 - 149.95 for it. The prices really change
    for specialty Maples as I know of a nursery in Northern
    California that sells named varieties for $2,000 for each
    15 gallon dwarfs such as Tamahime, Kiyohime, Kotohime,
    Sekka yatsubusa, Coonara Pygmy and Sharp's Pygmy to
    name a few that I have seen before and saw there recently.

    Don't worry about introducing a sub topic for an existing
    thread. I've done it myself and I'll do it again I suppose.

    Any more when we go into a nursery we should analyze
    the plant and determine if we have interest in it before we
    ever look at the label. Even still, we should buy a Maple
    not due to the name on the label but because we like the
    plant we are seeing. Any variegate is worth having no
    matter what name it is being called. We can worry later
    what the correct name of it may be.

    As far as a book of pics, I think that an accompanying
    book just showing the growing stages of Maples during
    the year has become even more imperative than the notions
    were of doing such a thing was 25 years or so ago. The
    dilemma we face will be, who do we believe has their
    Maples pegged properly? I think that a photo-book could
    be an invaluable instructional tool and perhaps could be
    the most important, defining area for the Maple Society
    and others to actively work on. It is long overdue to get
    some mainstream thinking on what these Maple cultivars
    are but there will be inherent frustrations that will come
    about just like they have in the past 40-50 years when what
    we learned and know will clash with what others have
    learned and know. I would just say get over it and get to
    work. If Maples are a plant that people truly care for they
    will be more than glad to work together to perpetuate their
    beloved plant the right way.

    I no longer do plant ID's in these forums any more. That
    is a "loser" for me. It is no fun at all when someone asks
    for help then some of us offer some insight and then find
    out that after what we wrote them has been absorbed, that
    the person that asked for help becomes an "expert". It is
    tough to take most of the time and it has been done to a
    number of people that I felt bad for when it has happened
    to them in these forums.

    Here is a URL to an exceptionally nice Tennyo no hoshi.
    Be sure to click the link under the image to see two more
    pictures of this Maple. Look closely at the leaves, not the
    size of the leaves but the color and the shapes of the leaves.

    http://www.esveld.nl/htmldia/a/acptnh.htm

    Jim
     
  19. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    It is nice to see you link to the Esveld site, as I have it bookmarked it and try to look there often to answer my qestions--shame I didn't check there on this tree, as my tree only looks similar to the Esveld Tennyo.

    It is always the appearance of a tree that draws me in, and a shame that so many trees come mislabled--it is nice to take comfort in a name. I bit like the Fireglow I planted in the front yard that turned out to be far from it (and atropurpureum seedling i suppose). More like deception when I bought that one, rather than mislabling. I was finally able to obtain a Fireglow this summer and to put the two next to eachother, well one struggles to identify the similarities.

    As we all try to be certain of what we have, at least there is comfort in their beauty and an appreciation for the deveristy within the species. I guess I'll have to be extra careful before I send a label with that scion wood:)

    Thanks for all your help.
     
  20. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Well hi all,

    I've finally gotten around to posting some pics of my Mystery Maple with fall colors. It's displayed some very interesting fall habit.

    For most of the leaves the light green areas have turned either red or gold in color, but the medium green areas remained green. Some leaves displayed three colors at once.

    Some leaves had bi or tricoloration but also had a reddish overcast to them. These leaves were probably the ones that received the most direct sun while at the nursery I bought it from.

    Eventually most if not all the leaves turned a beautiful gold color over the entire leaf then quickly dried after a few days. The tree is still very healthy and I'm planning on repotting it soon.

    I can't wait till spring!

    Best,

    Layne Uyeno
     

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  21. Re: Need Help IDing This Japanese Maples

    Hi,
    I'm going to jump in here with an ID'ing question, if that's okay. Does anyone know if there is a way to tell Crimsom Queen from Garnet? I planted two early in my ***. maple aquisition when I wasn't too worried about names. Now eight or so years later I have two beautiful trees and I don't know which is which. If anyone can help me on this I would be grateful. Thanks.
    Kay Dye
     
  22. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hi all,

    Here are some new updates for this unusual tree taken 7/05. This year the habit is a bit different to say the least. Most of the new branches are fairly short but it's putting out three long shoots that are over 2 1/2ft. and going!

    The first two pics taken without flash show the colors almost true with the light green variegation on medium green. The pics with flash came out a bit on the yellow side.

    At first I thought maybe this year I was seeing less variegation, but after looking at my Butterfly putting out more cream color this year I'm thinking what I'm actually seeing is *more* variegation. More of the leaves are the light green color all over. Some leaves have the variegation I saw last year. But some leaves have the medium green on the *outside* of the lobes instead.

    There's a bunch of leaves that appear to be *normal* looking with no variegation and no unusual shape to them.

    I don't have springtime pics, but for the most part the variegated leaves come out light green and slowly the medium green portions fades in. Some of the dead dry leaves you may see in the pics are from last fall when the leaves changed and then dried on the branches. It's not from any burning this season. In fact, this maple has shown little burning. I really should snip those dead leaves off.

    This maple never ceases to amaze me...

    Layne
     

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  23. carbluesnake

    carbluesnake Active Member

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    Location:
    nacogdoches texas
    Your new tree certainly looks like a Tennyo no hoshi. One difference between Tennyo and Ao kanzashi is the Tennyo will develop pink margins, especially when exposed to the sun.
     

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