Re: Mycorrhizae pick your expert If you learn how to make the stuff, or breed the stuff, or culture the stuff let me know as it cost a lot to buy. I have ten strain of the stuff but I don't now how to make more of the stuff. Boy I just had dinner and I am stuffed.
Re: Mycorrhizae one expert replies Jim at Fungi Perfecti replied to my message asking about Myco products. He said Dr. Mikes website offers very good guidance and that Dr. Mike is one of the most knowledgeable in commercial innoculant biz. Jim said that 'company policy' prohibits his involvment on the forum but that he's ok answering a few of my questions. I did ask him some questions and I'll post his reply if that's OK w him.
Re: Mycorrhizae pick your expert For small amounts maybe some soil from an established tree known to have the "stuff" could be used.
Re: Mycorrhizae one expert replies See if he will not tell you what the brew is for the fungi, also see which strains work best for trees or for our beloved trees. Can't we have a live chat though UBC and find someone that is not restricted about what they can say about it. There is a moderator that watches what we say, maybe he knows. I wonder if he will reads all the post or if he uses a dialectic scanner that looks for dissensions. Let see if this word sequences bring him of of his grotto " you have Very,,,ANGERed I at" !!. that should do it.
Mentioned before in FAQ "Planting Maple Trees Well", this site www.reforest.com has some interesting info concerning mycorrhizae and trees.
Re: Mycorrhizae one expert replies Richard, I did mention to Jim that sharing info here would be legit AND I sent Daniel M. a message to be sure that it would be OK. On that same Fungi link the spore list is shown. I did buy one oz. of MycoGrow soluble. Regarding culturing the 'stuff' --- this forum popped up as i googled for info. The posters there seem to be remarkably savvy and their webmaster says "add the mychors to your compost pile you will have plenty-indefinitely!" Gil
Re: Mycorrhizae one expert replies That great news, I saw plenty of white filaments in my compost pile last summer. I don't know it was the right ones or not though. I have read a bit about the stuff tonight myself it seems that the maple(all) only take advantage of one type, that being Endomycorrhizal fungi. Did this guy have a Endo mix to sell? I am potting up about a gazillion maples this (winter like season) so it would be nice to have some to thought into the mix. (winter like season) = it was fifty today, yesterday was in the sixties and last week it hit 75 so how can I call this winter, is this a very long fall season or did it turned into spring and no one told me or this is global warming and we are so screwed. I trimmed some Birch tress yesterday and they bled like a stuck pig. Sorry it that last statement it may have been too graphic for a such a gentile audience, however, I am a real redneck you know. This is my 222 post should I be given an award or something for all this typing I am doing. Oh yea I just go one, how to have all the Mycorrhizal fungi I can use for life, that is so huge, Thank a billion zillion times for that Gil !!!!!!!
Hi Richard, I buy two 20 lb bags of endo powder formula and it lasts me two years. Only a heaping tablespoon is needed for each maple when I pot from a 4" to a 1 gallon. I had my girlfriend help me with some 1 gallons last year and when I checked the roots of the ones that died I could definitely see those that she forgot to add the supplement. Some nurseries mix it with their potting mix. I cannot afford to use so much at one time. I prefer one pot at a time. Did I already mention that Monrovia Nursery uses it for all their stock? Sam
No follow-up yet on my questions to Funghi Perfecti but they did process my order quickly. My questions were: 1- If my soil is healthy and undisturbed will the appropriate fungi be thriving there w/o the need for inoculation? 2- Do the fungi continue to flourish indefinitely if the soil conditions are favorable? 3-At the UBC forum the interest in mycorrhizae is focussed on usage in containers. While it seems like a great idea for growers using sterile media, do you think it makes sense for enthusiasts using media that is biologically active? I did find lots of info on Dr.Mike's site and I was persuaded to test out this stuff. My little package came with a catalog selling everything from myco chocolates, lab gear, truffle products, mushroom posters,t-shirts, etc quite an enterprise. Not much info came with myco grow but this page is referenced to learn more. Wondering if there is an optimal soil temp for application. Seems like waiting until soil gets into the 45-55F range would make sense.
Well I am just reading your post and it may be mentioned elsewhere but where did you get the endo from? My endocrinologist what's some, I don't know why.
Re:Glomus may n vaginate The mycorrhizae link to end all mycorrhizae links: http://www.mycorrhizae.com/ Endomycorrhizae describes an occurrence of a mycorrhizal associations where by a relationship is made by a fungal hyphae, the filamentous cells of a fungus. This filamentous cell enters in the cells of a plant to form a symbiotic relationship. The hypha does not penetrate the interior of the cell but invaginate the cell. I think you can imagine what the word in-vaginate means, or to envelope. The relationship is one that facilitates the transfer of nutrients between the two species. One division of fungi only, carries out this invagination of the lignified cell membrane within the root structure of the maple, it is know as glomeromycota. Glomus is the only genus of mycorrhizal (AM) fungi, with in the division of glomeromycota for which I can find have symbiotic relationships, or mycorrhizas with roots of maples. So if you buy mycorrhizae what ever look for glomus some where in the list of fungi(ingredients). Take a look at this link it will show you what you need to look for when you are selecting a myke product for maples. http://www.plantrevolution.com/soluble.html I have also read that if P or phosphorus levels are high it will inhibit mycorrhizas as the fungi will have all the P it needs and will not have a need to colonize with the root system. In my opinion any chemical fertilizer with P being greater then 10 may inhibit the symbiotic relationship. This next link may be considered one of best myke products for your maples, it has an excellent list of Endomycorrhizal fungi: 40,000 propagules/lb. tons AND some extremely good bacteria, plus all the rest : http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=PSS400 There are a lot of bad mycorrhizal products out there, we wont be fooled again! Well so much for that, ah. I am done, this is my end product someone send me a tree. I hope I was accurate for the most part, it is the best I can do, I am not a microbiologist, but I hope to play one on TV .
It has been stablished that endo are better than ecto for Maples but, wihch specie of fungi that interact as micorrhizae must be used? Many fungi can be symbiotics with an upper plant and to develop a micorrhyzae, but which specie should be used for Maples?
I´m sorry. At the moment I posted, the last message of Richard doesn´t shown and there is the answer I was looking for. Regards
Slightly off thread because this is not directly related to maples but I think the basic concepts are transferable. I've been a doubter regarding the usefulness of Myco in containers. I discovered I had 2 misconceptions 1-AMF's can't survive in hot containers 2- AMF's are killed off by inorganic ferts. I came across this "Another report that I found reported that Mycorrhizae concentrations was increased with the use of MicroMax and Osmocote. The increase in mycorrhizae was about double with the MicroMax than without the MicroMax. One additional report showed that both mycorrhizae and plant mass was increased with the use of MicroMax and Osmocote." on a Louisville Bonsai society page. The Author, George Beuhler, cites 2 studies. One involves ARM and Osmocote and is available on line. The other paper I couldn't find online but is cited in the very informative Mycorrhizae section of this publication on page 2. This learning definitely changes my view of the biology vs chemistry paradigm. Isn't it surprising that inorganic ferts increased both myco population and plant mass more effectively than oranics?
Poetry, That's really a fascinating article! However, the slant to this one is that the organics and the inorganics had radically different nutrient concentrations (5-3-4 vs. 18-7-10). Had they been roughly equal in nutrients, the results may have been different. At any rate, we know the fungal treatments really do help, and that plants respond to nutrients, no matter what the source. The choice for using organics vs inorganics remains more a matter of conscience and conviction than effectiveness. I'm trying a new fertilizer this year. Its called Plant-Tone by Espoma. It has a blend of 15 beneficial fungi/bacteria plus a low-nitrogen formulation. This is going in the garden, not the pots...
K4, The NPK ratios and quantities are different but both are dosages considered optimum by their manufacturers. Regarding "we know the fungal treatments really do help" seems to be disputed by science. The second paper says "Some of the most convincing products are those that have solid scientific basis for efficacy but no direct evidence that they work. A classical example is mycorrhizal inoculants for landscape trees." The author here cites some of the same papers in the Beuhler talk. I was surprised to learn that the efficacy for myco inoculants seems better established in container growing conditions than in the field. I too use the Espoma products. Their manufacturing plant in Millville is close to Philly and Cape May. Their Hollytone product is hugely popular around here.
"Regarding "we know the fungal treatments really do help" seems to be disputed by science." ??? The paper you just had me read said the combination of microbes and fertilizer yielded the best results. Maybe I'm confused here...
That's cool that they're close by. Do you think we could talk them into a Maple Society discount? Their stuff is pretty expensive! Speaking of Espoma - I just went to Lowes and noticed a new one I had never seen before. It's called "Bio-Tone", and has much more of the Myco and other benies than the other "Tones". So I got some, and I'm making my own custom mix of Holly-Tone (has more acid and includes a lot of micro-nutrients). Plant-Tone (some Myco), and Bio-Tone (more Myco). I'm planning on adding this to the top-dressing of compost for my planted trees this spring, and to mix into the fill when I do new plantings.
K4, The myco study that demonstrated positive outcomes with a combo of osmocote and myco used containerized plants. In the second piece the author says "Recent research by several groups showed no effect on inoculated landscape trees from commercially available mycorrhizal products" Those outcomes are the opposite of what I was thinking. That info suggests to me that culturing native myco and supporting it with consistent nutrition will give the best results. It's astonishing that the myco seemed to help the roots even with Texas summer container temps (110F). You'll definitively notice activity using Holly-Tone. That stuff grows mold with the quickness when moist. Not sure if what develops is EM or BM or .... but it's stinky and alive.
I planted an acer freemanii last year using only humate and the mycorrhiza fungi, all 20 strains. The tree increased in size from 13 to maybe as much as 20 feet in just seven months, it continued to grow new leaves right up until the older leave turned colors. Ok just let me say the tree grew a lot that is the truth because I don't have a latter tall enough to measure the hight of it. This tree was planted as a street tree in a small opening in the side walk. As to the science, it should be considered that knowledge is subject to the trickily down effect. For the local agent to learn of such advances is not to be expected. Humate is also is also slow to be understood because it takes a thorough understanding of basic chemistry and biology. How would one begin to explain what a natural acidic organic polymer is? Humate has a pH of three, yet it does not effect the soil pH, what ? Your county agent is not going to get that one either. The humic acids have been in the text books for a long time, my books reference its potential as far back as 1950. Israel is possibly the only county that understand humate, as they import tons and ton of it. Well a ton of ground black rock that looks like dirt is not a really a lot, is it. When you put in your vegetable garden (Plant your vegetable garden,) use humate, thats all anyone need to know. About 95% of the all the plants on earth, form the mycorrhizal relationship in their native environments, which is accomplish when all the humic acids are present or it will just not happen. It works, but which one works with your plant is the question. Second do you mix the fungi for soil inoculation with tap water that has been treated with chlorinated organic chemicals. I would not do that as this stuff cost a lot of money, the good stuff cost like sixty dollars a pound if I am remembering correctly. Of course if you are spraying a forest that has been burned out it cost a lot less.
Thanks Richard, K4 and Gil. Great discussion. I am going to check out Humate. I am still using Endo-mycorrhizae. Also, this is the first I have heard of Espoma products. I want to try an experiment using several of these products to see which one performs the best. Thanks again. Sam
Espoma Garden Tone is full of beneficial bacteria inoculants, but I didn't see any fungi on the list. I assume the bacteria are to break down the organics so that methane does not build up too quickly and to make the nutrients available to the fungi and or plus to quicken the uptake of free nutrients by the roots. Espoma also make a product call Starter, brilliant name isn't it, that have a few ectomycorrhizal and endomycorrhizal fungi. Last year I found an endomycorrhizal bloom underground, it was so cute I which I could have preserved it or at least taken a picture of it. I don't think we have a clue as to the diversity of these fungi nor do we know the exact ones are best for any given plant. They are amazing little things tho. I bet a documentary would have more then enough material to make for a most interesting show. Albeit, it may be bit hard to film a fungi attach on an earth worm.
Re: Mycorrhizae and Verticillium There is only one product, it is http://www.humboldtwholesale.com/Plant_Success or http://www.plantrevolution.com/ps_products.html is by far the best of their products. If you use this product bare n mind a healthy dose of fertilize my not allow the relationship to form. On warm and damp days I can easily see the vegetative action of the mycelium blanketing my cypress mulch. I have not seen this when the there was not an fair amount of humate worked into the soil. This is good news for us, because we can get the same results with little fertilizer and still maintain the trees variegation coupled with steady growth. If you can say up with my screw ball writing and layout , back to humate. I have been able to bring many trees out of its summer dormancy by applying a foliar application of fulvic acid. This year I am researching folic acid to see if I get a vegetative response as well. I have combined these two topic because I believe these fungi are best populated with the humic acids and minerals that are inherent to humate . You most likely can populate the mycorrhizae using humate in your compost pile. to note: the temperature should not exceed 48c for an extend period. Will the use of mycorrhiza fungus inoculant have an effect on verticllium? I believe it does, because research has made this argument. Which species provides this supportive attributes, are in question. I believe that one day soon we will see designer species that will specially target verticllum, if it has not already been done. The development for such a product will be hastened when commercial interest understands that we as growers are ready for it, and that we understand the science. For those Missourians out there I have posted a Japanese study on the topic. Many universities have completed research projects that were paid for by private interest, yet the results are not published, on the other hand they are not hidden either, ya just need to know the combination to open it. Money drive research and we are the money. http://rms1.agsearch.agropedia.affrc.go.jp/contents/JASI/pdf/society/54-0200.pdf Sorry about the colors, I need it to, well to stay as happy as I can
