Most northerly Phoenix Canariensis in the world?

Discussion in 'Outdoor Tropicals' started by Deneb1978, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Hey all,
    I am just wondering where is the most northerly Phoenix Canariensis in the world? I know there are some in the Scilly Isles off of Cornwall. Are there any further north? The Shetlands and the Faroes which are quite a lot farther north but also directly in the Gulf Stream are definitely zone 9... so would Phoenix Canariensis grow there? Maybe some UK posters would have an answer to this one....
     
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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  3. bjo

    bjo Active Member 10 Years

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    Definitely will grow outdoors in London, England (year round out of doors).

    You might also enjoy looking at this website:

    http://www.scanpalm.no/aalesund_english.html

    where a range of palms are grown out of doors in Norway!!!!....however Phoenix canariensis is not one of his successes.

    ciao
    Brian
     
  4. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Cool! Thanks for the links :) Definitely some interesting info there....
     
  5. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    In our climate, don't expect sucess unless winter protection is provided.
    Here's mine ... Cheers, LPN.
     

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  6. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Cool.. that's a great looking Phoenix Canariensis there! How will you protect it when it gets bigger? Certainly no Phoenix palm can survive in Vancouver unprotected that's for sure, but it's interesting to see what they can grow in some places like the Shetlands (60N) and the Faroe Islands (62N) which which have much less extreme temperatures than Vancouver in the winter due to the Gulf Stream. I imagine that summer heat must be a real pain for anyone trying to grow something there though...
     
  7. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    or rather lack of summer heat...
     
  8. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I suppose I could do what this guy in England does. Add a framework around the wrapped palm and use some heat if temps dip below -5°C.

    Cheers, LPN.
     

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  9. urbantropics

    urbantropics Member

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    Hi LPN,
    I noticed a couple years ago you were offering to send somebody that was searching for a cytisus battandieri if they paid the postage....would you happen to have any more that you'd be willing to part with? I live in Ladner.
    Thanks so much,

    Lisa
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Where is the evidence that Phoenix will persist outside in London? Link provided appears to be typical "so it ought to grow here" Zonal Denial stuff with pictures of fully developed specimens growing in soft climates and small starts/wrapped or covered larger ones only in the "ought to grow here" locations.

    Last time I drove down the Oregon coast to California the first Phoenix I saw was a conspicuous one right off the highway at the north end of Gold Beach. Sunset WESTERN GARDEN BOOK (Sunset Publishing, Menlo Park) has Gold Beach mapped at the top end of the same Sunset Climate Zone as San Francisco.

    The talked about Washingtonia at Stevens Memorial Hospital north of Seattle finally grew tall enough to no longer be protected by the warm air coming out of the physical plant, burned up this winter. Even now, this far into the growing season it consists primarily of a trunk with a tuft of nearly all tan fronds on top.
     
  11. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Milder regions in the UK is not London. UK has zoning ranging from 7 to 11.
     
  13. bjo

    bjo Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi Ron,

    it was me who said that they will grow out of doors in London, England. This was based on one I saw growing in a large pot in a small front garden in a London suburb some years ago. The owner was working in the garden. He confirmed that it was Phoenix canariensis and I asked him how he looked after it. He said that it stayed out of doors year round, had survived several winters and that he did not give it any special treatment.

    I cannot find any formal references on the web to support this observation, but one of the comments on this page is relevant:

    http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/shop/PhoCan.shtml#cultivation

    Perhaps he's the guy I talked to ?!

    Quite a lot of tender plants will grow in London which will not grow in the surrounding countryside because of the big city island heat effect. To illustrate the effect, for example, Kew gardens in London has 72 more frost-free days than the nearby but rural royal horticultural society gardens at Wisley.

    Ciao
    Brian
     
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Only if you include the UK Overseas Territories like Ascension Island! Mildest in UK 'proper' is marginally zone 10 (Isles of Scilly). No 11.
     
  15. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Cool... very interesting everyone's comments. Certainly the island heat effect would probably make London a full zone warmer than the surrounding areas. On the link that Michael F first provided, they were saying that the Phoenix Canariensis needs at least an average temperature year round of 12C in addition to the zone 9 temps in the winter in order to survive outdoors without protection. Has this actually been definitively proven by experimentation or is this pure conjecture? I can't find any definitive answers one way or another... That's why I was wondering if they would survive outdoors in either the Shetlands or the Faroes which are definitely zone 9. I remember also seeing a picture on the net of a fairly large specimen of P. Canariensis in Cork, Ireland... which is slightly further north than London.
    Here is the link I believe: http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about2257.html
    The picture of the P. Canariensis is midway down the page.
     
  16. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    I'd say that one in Cork is the winner in terms of mature specimens. All the ones I've seen mention of any further north are recently planted, so haven't been around long enough to have been tested by a severe winter.

    Worth adding, the Cork coast is zone 10.
     

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  17. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Here's two at 55°N latitude (well, 54°59'N to be exact), in the ground for 4+ years. No evidence for any winter damage (other than trimming to stop them blocking the footpath!)
     

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  18. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Wow impressive! The power of the gulf stream.... I really wonder how far north in Europe you could theoretically push this plant.... hmm? I read someone tried to grow it in Ã…lesund, Norway without success.. so probably somewhere south of that.... Need to get someone in the Faroes or Shetlands to give this a go.. and see what happens. Would the plant face the same fate as the one planted in Norway?... I guess it remains to be seen....
     
  19. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    This one is only young, it remains to be seen how it would cope with a bad winter like the ones around 20-25 years ago. Maybe it won't last.

    But if it does last, there's very little difference in the climate for a fair way further up the UK mainland east coast so Aberdeen (57°N) and probably Inverness and Nairn (57°30'N) would be as good as Newcastle appears to be so far. I'd think in Shetland low summer temperatures are going to be a serious limiting factor, the summer mean is 3 or 4 degrees cooler there.
     
  20. Nath

    Nath Active Member

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    Ron B where I currently live in Nottingham these Palms are thriving we live in the midst of a mixed latino/italian community so some of the Italians especially brought these Phoenix Palms to our area years ago, one of the neighbours around the corner has a Phoenix that is almost as tall as his 2 storey House now, and I've seen other magnificent Palms in other gardens. I have 4 myself a couple that have now survived 4 winters and temps down to -10 the winter just gone as we live on top of a hill, in fact at the highest point in Nottingham. I was at Aston University in Birmingham and they too have some well established magnificient palms in the grounds. In my own case so long as you use a good fungicide after a prolonged period of rain then they will be fine.

    They also thrive in Barcelona in winter and it gets far colder and wetter there on occaision in their winters than I've seen here in the UK so I guess they are some of the hardiest palms around.

    Nath
     
  21. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Interesting...how long did your -10C last for? was it just for a few hours or several days? How long did the temperature stay below freezing? Here in the PNW, Pheonix doesn't succeed outdoors north of the southern Oregon coast due to prolonged freezing temperatures even down by the water despite the fact that some places don't usually see anything below -10 as well.
     
  22. Nath

    Nath Active Member

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    It was for about a week always at night it got to -2 during the day, it was a very unusual cold snap and we had a lot of snow, apparently the first snow in Nottingham for 10 years it is normally very mild i winter here with around 2 to 5 degrees being the coldest. Nottingham is surrounded by 7 Coal generated power stations and the cooling towers constantly pump steam out into the atmosphere and the locals reckon thats why Nottingham has its own little micro climate, not as much rain and very little cold compared to the rest of the country becuase the power stations warm the atmosphere up in this area, I don't know if this is true or not? Anyhow it deos seem to get much better walmer weather than anywhere else.
     
  23. Deneb1978

    Deneb1978 Active Member 10 Years

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    Yeah .. having a local power station or two blow hot air into the atmosphere where you are would definitely create a microclimate which would allow Phoenix to succeed....Maybe we should see if we could plant a few beside hot air vents in apartment buildings here... but once they get too tall....the cold would definitely finish them off... I think something along this lines happened to a Washingtonia in Seattle.... it was planted by a warm air vent and then grew too tall for it and died from the cold.....
     
  24. Nath

    Nath Active Member

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    Its a possibility, but with Global Warming I don't think the UK will ever return to the Cold Winters it had 20 years ago or so, all the indications are that its walming up year on year and see levels are rising, new wildlife is apearing on British shores that hasnt been seen before, including Chipmunks from France in the news this week and the Black widow spider thriving as far north as the Watford Gap whats that all about?
     
  25. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Mix of things happening there.

    Global warming is happening very fast on a geological time scale, but it's still not that fast as to be warming year-on-year - another severe winter like the ones 20-25 years ago could easily will happen again sometime. Maybe not another one like the 1962/63 freeze though, or at least, I hope not!

    Chipmunks, because someone's pets escaped. Nothing to do with global warming at all! Chipmunks also occur naturally in Siberia, so they are very cold-tolerant.

    Ditto the Black widow spider, that has just arrived by hitching a lift on a plane. Again, nothing to do with global warming at all.
     

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