Re: Seeds of Hybrids Does anyone know if it is possible to tell if a Citron came from a grafted (lemon) seed (and/or grafted tree) by looking at the characteristics of the interior of the fruit. I am talking clarity of the chambers on an Etrog (citron) verses a lemon. Also the amount of juicy flesh inside the fruit. Also, if there are any markings on the exterior of the fruit itself that suggest grafting? Thanks for any input you can provide Alex dev@chayas.com
Re: Seeds of Hybrids Dobrei Dein Alex , if I understand your question and rephrase it: is it possible to track 'thee' Etrog? Yep!! That the silver unicorn hunting... I am a the research of any one , but anyone that could just direct me to a path. And you know what? Not being defetist, no one could come with a decisive answer. And 'pour cause' only a small segment of the population are interested with Etrog fruit and they have no way systematic ways to define the Etrog specs. I was in contact with Mr. Eliezer Goldsmith from Rehovot, Mr. Allen Witstum from Beer Sheva, the pupil of Tanaka Seinsi from Osaka Mr. Mutto Sama, and Mrs. Elisabeta Niccolini from Napoli. they worked on a ADN compared marker analysis and yes found Etrog markers (I have the copy of 3 of the analysis but the bottom line is :...BUT WHAT is 'thee' etrog in order to define what a etrog is ...and when do it stop to be one.They have to be politicly correct not comdemming any grower in Israel , Italy, Morroco..., so after a few question ,you feel that any good Hybrid will be considered a Etrog by their criterium....and they agree to that. So back to square one, we do need 'Chazakah' (holded fact by high incidence) and only a uncut genealogy of the plant can be considered as true, even a few accident can happened the modern issues are force out cross pollination in Israel, graft for the marrocan (Sousse) Etrog, excessive use of akild/aquous pesticide every day, etc... Yehu de bon chemin n.b. I posted some specs of Etrog under the forum "Etrog question"
I have not ever grown an Etrog but I've been around some. I learned the Etrog to have two forms and some people whether correctly or not call one of the forms an Esrog. I can say based on what I've seen of them that they are different as one more closely resembles a Buddha hand, sans the fingers, by the coloring when ripe, the molded ribs out the outside of the fruit and by the amount of juice or lack thereof in the pulp. The second form does show some Lemon characteristics in the color of the fruit when ripe, the more streamline and less bulbous shape to the fruit with a hint of the molded ribs to the exterior of the fruit but the main difference is in the interior of the fruit is we see the segments are closer to being a Lemon, more similar to a Ponderosa Lemon in how the segments are shaped than they are to an Etrog. Not only that but there is a night and day difference in the amount of juice that is contained in the pulp. One, we can squeeze and get juice from whereas the other we can squeeze and squeeze some more and be lucky to get much juice at all. These are just some of the physical differences I've seen in the two forms that I am familiar with. Can we tell if an Etrog was grafted onto Lemon rootstock by virtue of the fruit? The answer becomes somewhat ambiguous as depending on how long the tree in question has been propagated by grafting in its past, then we may see some characteristics inside the fruit that may make us think that a Lemon parent is in this trees heritage but in most cases no, we will not be able to tell if the Etrog came from a grafted plant by the interior of the fruit alone. To remain pure the plant either had to arise from seed or from a cutting. Herein is where things get touchy as seed germinated from one tree may yield some seedlings that may appear different yet they are the same plant. We have to wait until we have had a few years of fruit to better know if the Etrog seedling more closely resembles the parent as we can have some variance both in the leaves and the fruit due to a variety of reasons such as impure pollen sources or a pollen source from another kind of Citrus. If the seed came from a parent that was selfed or came from as a result of parthenocarpic seed and it looked like the parent and the fruit closely matched the parent, then we may have what some people would consider a pure offspring. We can get the same thing from rooting cuttings from the parent plant and yes, even with cuttings we can see some variance in our seedlings and our fruit. For the most part people would prefer that their Etrogs were not grafted but some of these trees were grafted when budwood came in from sources or plants were brought in and people did not want to wait to germinate seed and grow seedlings but wanted to reproduce the Etrog rather fast and the qucikest way to get offspring is through grafting. We are dealing with a Citrus that is essentially an ornamental tree, not a tree that was meant to go into production for us to have fruit from it worldwide. We know that this tree has some religious meaning which makes the tree have added value to those people that want the fruit from it. If we can track our plant that came to us back to the sources we can better learn if the seed we have came from a grafted tree at one time or another. Even though by tracing back the heritage of our tree means that it may not be pure for ceremonial reasons the tree may be granted pure status if the fruit did not come from a tree that was grafted. I am "way out there" now but I believe it is also true as I've seen it, that as pointed out, if a true Etrog is not available a hybrid can be blessed which meant to me that a fruit from a grafted parent can be used for ceremonial purposes if no other Etrog is available. I think the main criteria is color of the fruit and having a prominent nipple but that is my own assumption. I first learned of the Etrog back in 1962 when a friend or our family had one growing in his back yard in a Los Angeles suburb. Mr. Cohen liked to naturally dry the fruit and served both the dried and the fresh fruit together as an appetizer. It is one of those things you do not forget as a 10 year old when you taste it for the first time. In reference to the private message sent to me, I felt the gal for what she wanted to do with the Etrog that she would be wanting trees that came from cuttings and that most of the grower nurseries that had the Etrog and two nurseries that I know offhand that have the Esrog, as I learned it to be, probably have grafted stock plants. I suggested that she talk to someone at Temple Beth Israel and learn if there would be any complications having her fruit blessed before she ever went ahead with her tentative plan to plant and grow 2 ½ acres of Etrogs/Esrogs. Jim
>>>>>>>"if a true Etrog is not available a hybrid can be blessed which meant to me that a fruit from a grafted parent can be used for ceremonial purposes if no other Etrog is available."<<<<<< Jim, I don't think a blessing by a Rabbi has anything to do with the fruit being kosher. Rather what makes the fruit kosher is the way the Etrog was grown, and the many items that it came intact with. The kosher laws are basicly dirived from Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 17. At least this is one gentile's understanding. I much perfer a grafted Etrog tree, rather than a tree grown from a seedling, but fruit from a grafted Etrog tree cannot be use ceremonially. - Millet
This link may have been previously posted to another thread but the photos are illustrative of the variance in etrogs and may be of interest to readers of this thread. Jim, can you identify from the photos the one which you remember as being juicy? Also, is it possible to tell which form a tree is by looking at its leaves and stems? Could the variance be explained by differences in cultivation?
I don't think a blessing by a Rabbi has anything to do with the fruit being kosher. Rather what makes the fruit kosher is the way the Etrog was grown, and the many items that it came intact with. When we pin people down on this we may learn what may be ideal and what may be actual can be two different things. I cannot go into the what is kosher and what isn't as that is not my department. I will say that I am not so sure an Etrog from a grafted parent cannot be used for the ceremony as without seeing the parent plant the Rabbi might be hard pressed to determine if the Etrog was from a grafted parent or not. I think a lot depends on where we are also as in Los Angeles the rules may be bent a little as opposed to what may be required in Haifa. I'll yield to someone that knows this stuff as we can pose some questions that may be rather diffident for a purist or even a Rabbi to answer off the cuff. I'll deal with the fruit instead from memory. What makes this all even more tough to figure out now is that the link that Junglekeeper cited shows several similar shaped fruit that are now being called forms. Most of them called an Esrog with the elongated shape that I learned it to be. Now the question is do those forms still have more juice in the pulp than the much more bulbous and rounded ended Etrog have? I cannot say for sure now but it used to be apparent that the more slender streamlined form did have more juice than the pulpy and richer colored bulbous shape had. Depending on what we want but if I were to buy an Etrog/Esrog for me or the misses it will probably be a grafted or budded a plant due to the coolness we can get here. I would want some cold resistance in the plant rather than have it on its own roots. That and the fact that most nurseries that have these trees are not likely to want to raise them from seed or rooted cuttings from a grafted stock plant anyway. Yes, culture can affect how seedlings can differ but when plants are grown side by side of each other the same way, culture does not play nearly as big a role as diversity can. Jim
With so much variation in fruit characteristics, how can one possibly know what to expect when ordering a tree online that is sold as 'Etrog'? My confusion is due in part to the terminology. Are the ones shown on the page to be considered to be cultivars in addition to and separate from the 'Etrog' cultivar? If yes, then shouldn't one expect a fairly consistent product when purchasing an 'Etrog' tree because of its cultivar status?
Jim, I mistook the meaning of the "words "parent plant." You did not mean the tree that the fruit came from, but perhaps the grafted tree was the fruit's grandparent or even further back? Of course if the Rabbi did not know that, than you could be correct that the fruit could be used. There would be no way to tell just by visual. - Millet
In reference to Zaide Reuven's Esrog Farm link we can see variance in the shapes of the fruit. If the fruit, as shown, are reasonably consistent and we like one shape better than the other then from this site we have a good basis to choose from. From other online sellers we may want to know what is the more consistent shape of the fruit they are selling and then we may have a better idea as to what we may be getting once we decide to buy one from an online source. Below is my source for the Etrog should I ever want to have one. Etrog Citron I will say that from the Zaide Reuven's Esrog Farm photos the Moroccan is what I would feel is the more desirable shape for an Etrog. When I look at the fruit shapes, to me, the Braverman and the Chazon Ish (Halpern) are the Esrogs and all the others are an Etrog by shape. Of course there will be others that may dispute the above and that is okay as even the Citrus community only recognizes one form to be an Etrog and so far do not recognize the Esrog. So in that respect none of us may have this right, that no matter what we think or have seen, someone is going to feel differently. I do like the thinking that there are a few forms shown in this web site as they are more likely to be forms rather than they are distinct cultivars. Most of the Etrogs that came into the US ended up being grafted plants, so the pureness of a seedling becomes an issue rather quick when we consider that its seed parent was probably a grafted plant. Which was my not too diplomatic approach for making the comment about bending the rules a little as it may be a real tough task to find a pure line seed source for these plants around here. Jim
One last post on this subject. I, as a collector of citrus varieties, grow what now appears to be an "impure" Etrog (grafted)that looks to be the Moroccan cultivar. At the time when I purchased the tree, I was not aware of the many shapes. As a gentile the only value I see in even having the tree, is purely because of its collector value. I normally just toss the fruit away, but occasionally save one for the fragrance. However, my wife claims they attract fruit flies in her house. Go figure? Maybe I should convert, than I would have an actual reason for growing the tree. - Millet
Jim, I also find the shape of fruit in the Fourwinds photo pleasing. It would be a nice complement to my lemons though its leaves aren't quite as attractive as those of other citrus, at least the ones on the trees that I've seen. Interesting. The house is hers and the greenhouse is yours? :D
