Monkey Puzzle Augustifolia Rare /endangered

Discussion in 'Araucariaceae' started by sikelsey, Oct 2, 2009.

  1. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Hi i have read afew reports about this tree being not very hardy in the UK ...Well i started growing afew last yr from a botanist in Brazil ,and they were doing well even at minus 10 ..Infact they were still growing and continued to do so ,and havnt as yet STOPPED...Infact the tallest is nearly 50cms ,others around 48cm ,going through all summer 2009 , and still growing ..As for hardyness of this extremely rare tree out of Brazil it can take at least minus 15 ..But a larger tree may if kept inside during conditions seemingly beyond its hardy range may in winter, If planted out later COULD infact prove hardy ...It is not known how hardy this tree is BUT HERES A CLUE ..They are also found in PERU ....This is a country bordering on extremes ...And some new seeds this yr i got from here ...IF they prove hardy like the above , we could all well benifit from this tree in the future ..
    This tree like its cousins including the Wollemi pine NEEDS REAL HELP NOW...I am looking for places where groves can be planted ..I have read that in as little as 15 yrs it can produce seed ..Thats amazing if true...The growth is remarkable and more rapid 20 times that of the common monkey puzzle or more ,and from a distance you'd sware it was the same tree ...The longer narrower leaves give it away ,though it still has that Jurassic reptile look that we all love in these trees ..
     
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Araucaria angustifolia has been tried many times in Britain, and there's never been a specimen survived to maturity. So I'd not be too optimistic.

    The problem may be lack of summer heat making it more sensitive to cold; there is a good specimen in Geneva Botanical Gardens, where winter temperatures are similar to Britain, but summers are hotter.

    BTW, it doesn't occur naturally in Peru! It may of course be cultivated there, but most of Peru is much more tropical than southern Brazil anyway.
     
  3. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thankyou for your reply , but in milder parts this tree might prove to be Hardy , here in North DeVON where tempertures last yr were below minus 10 , this tree simply ignored that and kept growing , Even in bitter weather where most trees were in hibernation , this one just didnt understand and put on at least three cent during the coldest spell ive known for yrs in DeVON ..tHERE ARE I BELEIVE strains of this tree ,almost hybrid , but some cross pollunation here ..But certainly from my area in the south west this tree needs further investigation ..I am finding places where this tree will survive , and my ones are certainly doing that ..i hope to find 300 homes this yr and loccally based even for some cross pollunation with the common monkey puzzle , as here in Arlington Court ,are perhaps the tallest and Biggest in the country ..Such is the unique climet we have down here ...Infact like alot of introduced trees im sure you are aware grow better /stronger then there native country ..Augustifolia here at least in the south west is already due to more water soil conditions growing better /stronger / then Brazil ...I shall update this thread on the behaviour of this tree in due course and thankyou for your reply
     
  4. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Sorry almost forgot ..You say this tree has not survived to maturity...Well i was talking just last yr to a guy in Cornwall who managed to get a hold of seed some yrs bk and has specimens that are ongrowing ,surpassing the common monkey puzzle ..Im not sure of there age but he has been growing them for some yrs without difficulty and cross pollunated examples as well ...So with that knowledge ill try and get bk to him ...
     
  5. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Very quick reply ..almost laughable im not sure your making sence ...you say the summers are to cold lacking summer heat for this tree to survive ? when it can survive tempertures down to at least minus 15 in the winter ? and possibly more ? can you elaborate please as my horticultural team are bemussed ....
     
  6. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    It probably needs a lot of summer heat to mature the wood fully - if it doesn't get enough summer heat, the shoots may not ripen fully and still be tender when the winter arrives.

    Checked in the Tree Register of the British Isles, the largest currently known in Britain is only 8m tall, in a garden in south Devon; as you point out, they grow fairly fast, so this won't be very old, not growing for long enough to have been tested by any severe winters like the ones in the early to mid 1980s or the (even more severe) 1962/63 winter.
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    "garden in south Devon" = Casa di Sole?
     
  8. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Yes - I didn't name it, as it isn't open to the public, so I don't know if they'd appreciate any publicity or not
     
  9. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thankyou Michael i think i know where your coming from ..As like i stressed earlyer ..That this tree dosent seem to want to slow down , even in the winter , But after seeing seedlings survive minus 10 ..Ok thats no certainty of Hardyness ,but nevertheless none even at this tender size died off ..Which is encouraging news ..With so called climete change ete even better ..As predictions forcast a 3 degree shift ..over all within the next 100 yrs ..It is likely although weird even ,that Bannana and coconuts mighten be grown com,or so they said on country file afew weeks back ...But getting back to the issue here ...If it is possible , perhaps now , at least in these milder parts to grow these trees in order to SAVE the species from possible exstinction ,then im all in for that ..And possibly just maybe the time is right ...Regarding severe winters /snow/ice /wind conditons ete ,We just have to moniter the situation ...North Devon had Heavy snow last yr and pack ice , the first time in 15 yrs ? , so like i say minus 10 degrees ..Which is unusual for this area .But considering the minus 15 possiblity or hardyness for this tree ..Were in for a good chance south west and parts of Ireland
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    If it does run into (introgress or cross with) monkey puzzle then there may be hardier intermediates in cultivation, that look more or less like pure parana pine and are being mistaken for it.

    Cultivated examples seen here - save for one among taller trees on a wooded hillside in Seattle, which was about waist or chest height at the time - have had poor color and a partially burnt appearance much of the time - as though a quite different climate and/or soil was required.
     
  11. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thankyou Ron for your reply and i do beleive there are crosses in cirulation ..If i might be so bold as to ask what tempertures you have in Seattle and further excuse my ignorance ,is the location sheltered or out in the open , i.e extreme heat / cold temps , or expossed to sea salt on the wind perhaps .. All this will be to the benifit to get to know the behaviour of this tree ...
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Cool and dry summers, damp and cool winters with important snowfalls not occurring every year - and lasting only a week or two when they do. Planting site has westerly aspect, thin woodland. No sea salt - Seattle is not on the ocean, plus garden site is in a valley not even in view of nearest salt water (Puget Sound). Last winter was fairly sharp, last July quite hot - have not seen specimen except for single visit a few years ago, do not know current condition.
     
  13. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thanks Kindly Ron and Michael for your expertise ..And i should have paid more attension to The Tom Hanks film afew yrs bk in Seattle ...Your seasons are very much like here in North Devon /England ,except we don't get the snow as much maybe .Although i do live on the coast and the chances of wind burn can do alot of damage ..Snow if any would last for a day or so on a good yr ..A week or two on a bad yr ...Though most yrs we only get a small amount of frost .. Yes like the wollemi pine / i feel this tree NEEDS a sheltered spot , if it needs any chance to grow well ..A mild winter would odvoiusly benefit ,especally in its early yrs ...THANKS ALSO FOR THE OTHER THREADS ON THIS TREE !!! i have read both your work with great interest ....I have donated three of these trees to R.H.S Rosemoor ..Like i may have said earlyer ,where they have a wollimi pine /like mine ..But theres has cones on it and its only three feet high ..I must put some picks up of that ...Furthermore im on Facebook on the offical R.H.S site where i have added afew pics of A YR OLD lush Austifolia /and a pic of The Wolliemi pine with cones on ..Exciting stuff ...I wonder if a Wollemi could cross with an Augustifolia ? ..Err perhaps NOT ...ANYWAY THANKS gUYS !!
     
  14. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  15. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thanks Again Ron , im quite surprized with the region you live in being that much colder ,perhaps it needs that magick tuch from Paul Hawkins book " The magic of Findhorn " ...You can only get this on Abebooks.com as its been deleted ..I shall not spoil the content ..As i first read this in 1981 and have been inspired ever since .Well worth any money to a gardener ..

    OK most of my trees of Augustifolia will be going to Aburetums ...This i do for free ..Ill make sure ill give them the kpnowledge i have gathered in order togive the utmost hope to these trees ..And visit time again for updtaes of there progress ..From 600 seed ..340 took well ..Not a good average but a fair one , as these were difficult enough to get hold of , let alone travel ....Im alittle disgusted with countrys who wont except this tree , but i respect the reasons why ..Even the Wollemi pine will find problems in spreading its wings like most other rare plants ..To protect the countrys natural Fauna no dought .. I will possibly sell afew to the public , though sadly only in Great Britain ,though the world needs this tree...Contact me on here if you wont to try this tree out , as i NEED people to not only appeciate this tree but discover its benifits / and in time its remarkable crop of giant seed pods like footballs which could benifit mankind in the future for food {photo on request} ..But this is like all ive heard only on approval as we really dont know the true hardyness of the tree..Ill possibly sell for £15 per tree seedling if you would love to experiment with it..
    Ok i shall always update on here of other rare plants i have , some perhaps not in any seedbank as yet ,becuase of low seed distribution ...Thankyou for welcoming me on here and Godbless for a wonderfull Winter and rare seed finds !!!
     
  16. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Here's a branch with cones on the one in Geneva Botanical Gardens. As far as I'm aware, it's pure angustifolia, not a hybrid. A. araucana on the right for comparison.
     

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  17. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thankyou Michael for the pics..Ok its time for a network on this tree , since most people are negative about the distribution of this tree , WE NEED AREAS OUTSIDE OF BRAZIL to grow this tree ..WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT ? ...wE MUST FIND OUT what is going on with this tree ..And its needs ...This tree needs specail attension ...If any scientists/botanists ete can help please contact me ..As to what this tree really requires as its important ...We csn give it everything ...but what does it really need ?
     
  18. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Should be plenty of places it can grow well - most of the Mediterranean, New Zealand, Tasmania, coastal California, southern China, Taiwan, southernmost Japan, for a starting selection. I've seen photos of cultivated plants in some of these.
     
  19. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    hmm thanks Michael ,Tasmania and New Zealand i have relatives who claim the tempertures to be simular to the uk ..At least where they live ..Though yes they do have other species of Aru ...So i must contact them to find out the temps and conditions and what species lives in them as ,Augustifolia is the second hardest of all the species ..Interesting
     
  20. JenRi

    JenRi Active Member

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    I've always loved Monkey Puzzle trees, and would love to have one but unless there is some way to limit their growth I don't think it would be a good idea in our small garden.

    Did you know sikelsey that to get seeds you need both a male and a female tree......and thats assuming they live long enough to reach maturity in the first place?

    I do wish you luck with your project however:)
     
  21. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    A few monkey puzzles are hermaphrodite, but many others are not.
     
  22. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Hi JENRI interesting comment ...I first started growing these trees in the early nineties and two of which went in diffrent directions One went with my brother To Arundel Castle Sussex /another to a good freind in Pilton North Devon These two trees are about 9 foot tall now .. However a third one i kept and orginally planted out ,but i moved about alot ,Northampton London ete ..In the end i just kept it in a pot ...Just as well as its less then 3 foot tall ..Almost Bonsi/sh you might say as the leaves are small ..Interesting reason i kept this one was its twisted butressed trunk almost snake like as it whirls up ...Mind you would have been more interesting to have planted this one out ,as ive never seen anything like it !!!....
     
  23. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Here's a monoecious ("hermaphrodite") specimen of A. araucana. It has been constant over several years observation in producing cones of both sexes. Others I've watched have all been consistently male or consistently female.
     

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  24. sikelsey

    sikelsey Member

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    Thankyou Michael very interesting detail here , It seems perhaps like from ancient times these trees/ found new ways of survival ... eg like here some growing male and female seed from the same tree , others single sexed..The Wollemi pine , sends out extra trunks to form a massive stand against Fire damage , at least that was the report i got from the orginal clippings ive kept from the paper ..Anyways we all new all that !!! Great pics !!!
     
  25. JenRi

    JenRi Active Member

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    But not the subject of the thread, which is why I made the comment - I wasn't trying to say all Monkey puzzles were dioecious!
     

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