I am seeking advice from people who have experience growing Michelia figo either indoors or outdoors, especially from those located in my immediate geographical area. A plant that was acquired in February managed to bloom and put on some new growth in the months following. Though not lush, it was doing fairly well. However it has slowly declined in the past month or so. It's leaves are turning brown around the edges and dropping off. What little new growth, leaves and buds, starts off looking green and healthy but subsequently die off. A healthy, greenhouse grown plant that was added to my collection last week is now beginning to show the same symptoms. This leads me to conclude the problem is the result of low humidity in my semi-enclosed growing environment. The addition of a pan of water underneath the plant has had little effect. Misting would not be particularly effective or practical. Not sure I would go to the trouble of constructing a tent. Time to consider a more suitable species? Have you had a similar problem? Please share your thoughts on growing this wonderful plant.
I have one in a one gallon pot with a saucer below on my sheltered west facing ground level patio. I had it indoors all winter and treated it as a houseplant. The bloom in spring was sad, a handful of blooms with almost no fragrance. It is now budded again for a second round of blooms. I let it get fairly dry then water it really thouroughly, even letting it stand in the saucer full of water until it all dries out again. I havent fed it, I try to spin it around once in a while because it seems quite phototropic, perhaps because of the limited light it gets. right now it seems happier than a pig in poop.
http://www.pirocheplants.com/Piroche/Web2002/Piroche.pdf follow the link for a PDF catalog from Piroche Plants, they are the nursery that wholesales the Michelias locally. There is also a few different varieties that are available (their sales person tried in vain to get me to buy a different type than Figo due to the questionable hardiness). you have to scroll down a long ways to see the listing, its under the shade trees heading.
Hi, Paul. It's encouraging to know someone is having success with the plant in this part of the world. Perhaps your plant is cooler and getting more humidity being on the ground floor. I'll have to think of other ways to increase the level here and see if it will change anything. I know of Piroche. My collection has several species of Michelia and Osmanthus from them. Too bad they're wholesale only; their WDS selections, Michelia in particular, are not that common at retail. I'd love to get my hands on a small M. skinneriana, the supposedly hardier version of M. figo, to see if it'll grow any better.
If you need a plant from Piroche at the retail level, call them and ask who has it in stock, if no one does, then ask them to get in touch with a local (to you) garden center, then go pester the garden center yourself to order it in. They may sell to you (Piroche that is) but you will have to pay retail and probably a bit for shipping if you ask nice enough.. If you have a tough time, let me know and I will see what I can do for you.
Michelia figo does not like salt build up. For indoor growing Paul is right to let the plant dry out some then give it a good, thorough flush of water. Without sunlight there may not be much for a fragrance. For outdoor growing an overhead sprinkler works best but do not let water stay on the leaves long. Any alkaline water will scorch the leaves in hot weather and will produce salt burn. Another thing to remember is do not use a lot of sand in your soil mixes. Michelia figo is quite susceptible to nematode damage. When what appears to be healthy leaves start dropping off without any apparent injury, look to the roots and see if you have any nodules. That is the first indication. The second is that the leaves will grow quite small, will become chlorotic and then drop off. In many nurseries we have an overlay of sand on top of the soil. When the roots enter the ground from the drainage holes of the container is when we will see our first symptoms of some nematode damage. You guys may not have to worry about nematodes but we have to with Figo, several types of Azaleas, some Camellias and especially certain forms of Gardenias. If the condition of the browning of the tips and/or the edges of the leaves were happening here, it would be due to salt build up. I've grown Figo and 'Port Wine' before. For us being a warm climate they like being grown in a saran house with about 50-60% shade. No direct sun but with adequate indirect light with a well drained soil. Grown outdoors Eastern exposures work best for us with morning sun either in the ground or in containers. I have not grown these indoors so I cannot be much help there. Although I would not ever use a granulated fertilizer for these, I would use an acid based liquid fertilizer instead for in the home or in a greenhouse. We did find that in an enclosed area such as greenhouse the leaves do not like being wet for most of the day. The leaves like to remain dry which may be why Paul's is doing well indoors. Early morning sprinkler watering worked best for us in a nursery grown outdoor environ. Jim
Thanks for your input, mr.shep. The combination of indoor cultivation and perhaps cooler weather in these parts appears to keep infestations to a minimum. No problems to date, knock on wood. Re: Fragrance...experienced growers have told me it is activated by morning sun.
Hi Junglekeeper: Here we tend to grow Michelia doltsopa like we would most any deciduous Magnolia but for Figo and Port Wine we grow them like we would a Sasanqua or Reticulata Camellia. Many people would not think there would be much of a variance in how we grow those plants in a nursery but there are some definite differences in the plants behaviors. I know of one leading Camellia grower that puts out a great plant but when we leave their plants in containers for two to three years we notice that their Camellias start to slow down, endure some leaf breakdowns and will die on us on occasion. We learned that if we plant those Camellias in the ground soon after getting them in that our losses are minimal. So we asked ourselves some questions, is it the plant that is breaking down, causing an assortment of leaves to show salt damage symptoms and nutrient deficiencies at the same time or was it the soil that initially came with the Camellia that was causing us the most trouble? We started to flush the plants with a hose watering every now and then hoping to help or solve the salt buildup even though our water is not alkaline at all and we did not give these plants any granulated fertilizer. Well, the salts was not it. Then we started to change the soil medium as soon as we had the plants come in and in doing that we seldom lost a plant after that. It was their potting soil mix that was breaking down on us. I suggest that you may want to try a different potting mix and see if that helps but I also know that once a Figo starts to decline it may not come back to being healthy anytime soon. Then again you do not have the heat stress that we have to endure and we do not have your length of cool weather either. Try a new soil mix and start flood watering your Figos every now and then and see if doing both will help. Good luck to you, Jim
Interesting. I've not heard of plants in containers suffering from soil breakdown, soil exhaustion perhaps; worth remembering. Perhaps I'll hold off on giving M. x alba a try until I solve the problem with this plant. It would be a lot more heartbreaking, not to mention costly, to lose one of those.
Michelias: a brief addendum. Just a quick note, all from memory as I have no books where I am in Oregon to help me. I originally learned Michelia alba as being Michelia champaca 'Alba'. The nursery I represented grew that form of Michelia. The original plant at the nursery came from Sir Harold Hillier many years ago. 'Maudiae' was a good form and was another Michelia to come in here from Harold Hillier. As far as hardiness goes, we had no real trouble with Doltsopa 'Silver Cloud', Doltsopa and with a Doltsopa selection I believe was called 'Dr. Thomas' (that is the name I remember it being called, initially named that in honor of the owner of the home where the original plant was found, somewhere near Marin County). I also believe there are a couple of those plants still alive at Filoli in Woodside as I know how they got them and who they got their plants from. I do not know how long you guys in B.C. have been growing Michelias but Champaca and Alba are not nearly as hardy as the Doltsopa's have been for us. I do think that Champaca is a little hardier than Figo and 'Port Wine' (I know in some circles Figo is called the Port Wine Magnolia but the form of Port Wine that we had was almost an all pink flower as opposed to our Figo with a lightly pink bordered flower). 'Yunnanensis' is probably hardier than any of the above, on a par with Doltsopa (it was for us). I do not know much of anything about Michelia skinneriana as we never had that one. I've had Michelia wilsonii and it seems hardier for us and for me than any of the Doltsopas. The problem was and still is, I think, is it a Magnolia instead? I think that answer depends on where and who the Wilsonii came from and I'll admit I am confused with Wilsonii as I've had both forms of the Magnolia and Michelia. To me they are not the same in flower and in the shape of the leaves. The growth habit for me was different in that one is a much more upright grower and will become a bona fide tree whereas the other seems to me to be a large shrub. Throw in a Magnolia x Wieseneri into the mix and then the intrigue of what we know about Wilsonii becomes even more confusing. Don Kleim of Henderson Experimental Gardens grew several forms of Michelia starting in the early 60's including one that Don called "Chartreusie", a Doltsopa that had a green stripe on the backside of the petals and a yellow-green colored base to the flower that did not fade much. It was a strongly, lemon scented round shaped large shrub, that grew about 3 meters tall and about 4 1/2 meters wide. Chartreusie seemed to be the hardiest of all the Michelia's that Don had. I just threw that info in "just because" as it shows that there might be other forms around that none of us knew of or still do not know anything about. Jim
Hi, Jim. The selection and availability of Michelia is rather limited here, likely because of the relative obscurity of the genus and the climate zone we're in. The heat lovers like M. x alba and M. champaca are only grown in greenhouses and M. figo is marginal outdoors (and apparently indoors as well). I agree M. maudiae is a wonderful specimen. The one that I have has beautiful form and foliage. Vigorous too; it has already put on 2' of growth this year. I can't wait for it to flower. There certainly is confusion with this genus. With regards to M. figo I believe there are actually two different selections - the regular species with creamy yellow flowers and the 'Port Wine' cultivar with maroon flowers. The confusion stems partly from the unfortunate common name, Port Wine Magnolia, which I believe is applied to both plants. And to further add to the confusion, they're debating whether to incorporate Michelia into the Magnolia genus. If that happens Michelia wilsonii will be getting a new name yet again.
Hi Junglekeeper: Just to add to the fun, I believe Michelia fuscata which was a synonym for Michelia figo is now being used in some cases for Port Wine. The Port Wine Magnolia attribution does not help matters as that to me is Figo. Yes, indeed there are some problems there. Not many people are familiar at all with Michelia so this thread is a good starting point for people to jump in and ask their questions. I am glad that my last "open" post was not taken wrong by you as I just jumped out there with some thoughts that I've had for a while on Michelia. That last post was not addressed to anyone in particular. Hardiness is a factor even for us with Michelia but like many plants once they have been in the ground for a while, usually 3 years here, they do tend to adapt better to our growing conditions. If Figo can be planted in a protected Eastern exposure it can make it here but not everyone can plant it in the right spot to insure that it may live. Then, we can later worry about it setting flower buds in a few years. Doltsopa's have not shown us to be as cold intolerant as we have been led to believe. You may want to look at 'Yunnanensis' and possibly give it a try but even then you will probably have to grow it in a greenhouse. In getting back to your low humidity thought, there may be something to it as I've encountered problem areas in other threads whereby people are not getting enough humidity even in their homes in Canada. With our Tule fog here during the Winter and earliest Spring months we do not have to worry about low humidity as much here. I am not used to heated greenhouses as even our greenhouses here when it is cold are not that cool inside of them. It is possible that the low humidity can cause a salt type scorch on the leaves. I've seen it in some Oregon greenhouses and my suggestion was run a humidifier after they changed their soil composition for their plants. I've found most of our problems originate with the soil and the roots of a plant. You can always work your Figos like an Orchid grower would when there is not enough humidity in our homes. Place some fine rock on the bottom of the pan to be used under the container. Place the "can" on top of the rocks and then fill the pan with water. It does work for us with our indoor Orchids. The leaves seem to stay healthy for us and do not require as much misting during the Winter months. Still, I would do some experimenting with various soil mixes for indoor or greenhouse growing. I would want a soil mix that allows for quick drainage but I want aeration in the soil, so compaction is minimized. You may want to try a soil mix that I use on my Maples, Conifers, Camellias, shoot just about everything. I run 1/2 humus, a coarse ground fir and pine bark, 1/4 sand and 1/4 silt all mixed together well by hand. If I mix it right I can get by for up to 7 years of hose applied, deep watering for all of my container grown plants (generally 20", 24" and 30" boxes). It is a simple mix but it has been quite effective for me. Michelia selection has always been limited most everywhere. Don had several varieties but he only propagated about 5 Michelias and even then only select people would want to grow them on. Usually someone that grew or grows Magnolias will try to grow Michelias as opposed to most anyone else. I think that one nursery that Paul mentioned has as good a selection of Michelias of anyone that I know of at the moment. Find out what their minimums are as you may be able to buy let's say 10, 5-gallons of mixed and matched Michelias. Make your one purchase count for you. I've done it in the past when I was buying strictly retail. I made a wholesale grower or two in Oregon in the past an overture after I knew what their minimums were and they never did refuse me. I came into their nursery to buy 20+ 5 and 15 gallon plants anyway and that is what I left with. I knew what I wanted for plants from them before we ever talked about plant minimums. Just for the record as I could not resist it, which form of Wilsonii will be getting a new name? I know what you are saying but the people that want to change the name generally have not grown either form but prefer to instead take someone else's word for it or have someone else grow the plant or plants for them. The problem is as always, do the people doing most of the talking know anything about the plant and in this particular case plants? It is real tough to believe someone that has not ever grown the plant in question. I'll leave things at that! Best regards, Jim
Morning brief: A Michelia backtrack. Personally, I feel the Magnolia Society should include Michelia species and forms in with the many Magnolia cultivars. The tricky part is how should they proceed to include Michelias in with the Magnolias. Granted, many of the Michelias were first found in areas of China in which there were several forms of Magnolias growing there as well. I am not so sure it will be wise to lump the Michelias in with the Magnolias for the Societies "cultivar check list" as I feel both Michelias and Magnolias should be separate. It is confusing enough just with 'Wilsonii' in that arguments can be made for both forms to be separate of each other. Related yes, but there is enough differences in the two species to allow for a separate classification for both plants based on their form and their overall growth characteristics. The problem then arises is, who knows the differences in the two plants? Someone that has not grown them or seen enough of them will not know everything they will need to know to accurately separate out the two plants. This is one time that the scientific community can help but they will really need to know the plants, rather than taking someone else's word for it. They will need to thoroughly evaluate both plants and then in taxonomic terms separate the two plants once and for all with a reasonable basis to back up the new classification. To classify the Michelia as a Magnolia would be wrong but to lump the Magnolia as a Michelia would also be errant to do. There is not a simple solution to this one and I am glad I get to stay out of it. I am not a member of the Magnolia Society, although I should be a member. Aside from knowing some of the members pretty well, no one will want my opinion and I've grown both forms. For a graduate student it could pan out to be worthwhile study for someone if what I've seen and know about Wilsonii is indeed true with other people. Jim
Michelia wilsonii will be getting a new name since Michelia is being absorbed. The new name is Magnolia ernestii according to the provisional classification of Magnoliaceae. I would prefer Michelia to remain a separate genus based solely on sentiment. Like you, I'll leave the intricacies of plant nomenclature to the experts at IPNI and other organizations that are responsible for such things. For me, I just want to know what to call my plants and to know the various names it was once given so I can research the plant.
Hi Junglekeeper: In some ways the Michelia name was bound to be absorbed into a Magnolia classification. I have to cite as an example the old argument of Azaleas versus Rhododendrons as a reason why the name Michelia probably will not change much in the near future. We still grow and buy Kurume and Satsuki Azaleas rather than call them Rhododendrons. Yes, they are all classed as being a Rhododendron but not all Azaleas are a Rhododendron in form. A Michelia doltsopa 'Silver Cloud' will probably stay that name in the nursery trade for some time. I am not overly worried that the "Magnolia police" are going to come into the nurseries and force people to change their labels on their plants anytime soon. Years ago there was a grad student that was working on Magnolias from a Mid-Western University that came into contact with us. When the guy was working on deciduous Mags he was in good shape but the problem that he encountered was in the evergreen Magnolias. The Magnolia Society really has little choice but to use the old classifications as no one really has been able to set forth an improvement on them. I like the idea of going back to the old basic classifications and wish more plant Societies would do the same. I am a purist in that I feel it is ridiculous to change the name of a plant just because it suits one or a few people that for the most part have never grown the plant or perhaps never will grow the plant. I really have no problems with someone calling what I learned to be a Michelia champaca 'Alba' a Michelia alba instead as long as we are talking about or referring to the same plant. Online in pic form I am seeing the plant called Alba that I once knew as Champaca alba, so it is up to me to adjust to the new name and that I can do. Wilsonii will require a lot of adjusting on my part as I truly think and it is not solely my opinion either, that there are two plants both being called Wilsonii. If I was an ornery cuss I would have told the grad student that one form is Wilsonii and the other form is Ernesti Wilsonii! There was a time that I could have promoted that other name and it would have been used in various circles, perhaps even today. All it would have taken was for me or for us to get a following for that plant and have it so widespread that no one would have dared called it by any other name. Get the plant in the right hands and the negative boo birds are out of luck in changing things around for a long while. Oddly enough that same reasoning was used in Japanese and Full Moon Maples in the past and it was rather effective. Those of us that are conscientious that have a genuine interest in plants want to have specific and permanent names placed on the plants and be done with it. Even if it means that what we learned of a name may be changed later but if the name sticks and will hold over time I think most of us can go along with it but not without some reservations. The latter is a normal consequence that we just have to endure individually. Michellias are safe for now, so that is not a worry that I would have. If I were growing Michelias for resale or for retail and a few cops from the Magnolia police asked me to change my label, I can guarantee you that I would give the enforcers an open book quiz just on Michelias that they will probably not pass. My point will be driven home by asking them questions which shows how little they know about that plant and as a result how absurd it is for them to tell me that I need to comply with their and others wishes not as well versed also in the same plants as well. Knowledge does come into play and when people are shown the "power" of knowledge they will yield. They will not be happy about it, they will fight it but in the end knowledge should prevail. The old Don Kleim philosophy of "I've seen it and you' haven't. I've grown it and you' haven't. If you' want to know more about this plant, then you' have to come to me and if I do not feel like telling you' anything more about this plant, I will not do it!" That slice of personal philosophy was the price that the scientific community brought upon itself for their being so obstinate and at times overbearing. The people that could help them the most from the growing end of the plant spectrum just simply shut up and told them nothing more. Jim
Hi Junglekeeper: Don't feel that what I wrote in the last paragraph pertains to you in any way. Some people in the educational fields have caused growers a lot of grief over the years. It is okay for certain people to change names around to make someone look good to their peers but no one seems to consider what the ramifications are or might be elsewhere. When you as a collector, perhaps, have to be worried about the names of your plants that you purchased as being what you bought them as being, then all of us have failed you. I know exactly how you feel though about Michelias, for example, as I've been through it also and still have some areas of concern of my own with that plant. I think the Magnolia Society is trying to iron out some of their problem issues from the past and the present. I think they are correct to address all of the plants or as many as they can of the Magnoliaceae classification. I really do not think that the higher ups really want to mesh or merge Michelia in with all of the Magnolias. Personally, I think a strong morphological case can be made not to name all of the Michelias as being an evergreen Magnolia instead. You have to realize that many of the society members probably have not grown any of the Michelias. You are in rare company and probably have more knowledge of Michelias than many of the society members have. I have some knowledge of Michelia but I am not an expert by any means as there were people that I learned various Michelias from that could run circles around me for knowledge of that plant. The bit with the Magnolia police was just facetious, tongue in cheek, fun as the Magnolia Society would not ever try to throw their weight around and demand changes in the nurseries, unlike what some unusually brash, young kids representing the State have tried to do on occasion. Moreover, policing of nurseries plant labels has been carried out in the past unbeknown to a lot of people. I have reason to believe there are some growers in Oregon that still remember those days. I know of a specific mom and pop foothill nursery near here that came dangerously close to being closed down all because of their plant labels back in 1982. Thanks for getting this thread started. I may have waited one post too long for me to opt out. I will do that now unless you have some more questions to ask. I think your main issue is with the soil mix. That is where I would be concentrating on to remedy the problem with the leaves that you originally asked about. Best regards, Jim
Thanks, Paul and Jim, for your input. Sadly, the plant appears to have gone on to plant heaven where I'm sure it'll grow profusely. I'll note the information for future reference. Sometimes one has to accept the limitations in one's growing environment, that some plants cannot be accommodated without great trouble and expense.
Hi Junglekeeper: We always seem to learn things the hard way when we try to grow a plant in an environment of our choosing, rather than in the plants optimal setting. I have not seen any Figos come back to health once they take a dramatic turn for the worse. The plant is quite similar to a Camellia in that respect. All we can do is try to analyze what went wrong and improve on our growing conditions the next time. I know what we went through with two forms of Stewartia here but we knew in advance that we were trying to grow a plant that would have a rough time of it. We sustained several losses before we got a few of them to live. It may seem like we lost a lot of individual battles before we felt we finally won the war but winning the war was costly. To introduce a plant in an environ that it is not used to growing in takes a lot of patience and willpower to succeed. One of the reasons why these UBC forums are so immensely important is so some of us can chime in on occasion and let people know not to make the same mistakes we've made in the past with certain plants. It takes a dedicated person to grow a plant knowing up front that the odds of its survival are indeed limited at best. Still, we try because we want to and because of the inner self gratification we get when we do succeed in growing a plant here that most people would not ever think was possible. I know nothing of your growing set up but I would not give up just yet. I know all too well how difficult it is to lose a plant you wanted to have and then go through all of the thinking, debating whether to go out and buy another one or not. Keep trying, you did just fine is all I can say to you should you want to grow Michelias. I lost my initial Figo in the first growing year that I had it. The next Figo did great for me with the same soil, the same sun exposure and the same exact setting. Go figure! Hope you have better luck with the next one. Jim
Hi Mr.Shep, My mom is interested in getting a Michelia, I was wondering where can I find it? Thanks, Lynn
Lynn--where is your mom located? Some of us know suppliers in our own areas, but shipping a long way is often not practical! Glen
Hi Mr.Shep, I agree with you about the handling and shipping, it cost more than half the tree itself. The I am located in the San Joaquin Valley myself. If you know anywhere in California that provide them that would be great. Thanks for your help. Thanks, Lynn
Hi Glen, My mom is located in California. If you can refer me to a couple of places that sell them that would be great. Thanks, Linh
FINALLY! the flowers opened yesterday afternoon, wonderful smell, 6 more blooms yet to open. Michelia figo.