Maple cultivar by another name OR (Synonym).#27 #458 #665

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Acerholic, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I wanted to see what the interest is on the Maples forum with regards to a thread that we can turn to, to see if a Maple cultivar we have seen and liked to add to our collection already exists but in a different name. Now I know the Maple Society has carried out some work on this and the updated Species list, but I felt as this forum is getting a very large amount of interest, then this thread might be of use.
    It could also save you a lot of money !! Which is never a bad thing.
    So I will start with a couple and please feel free to add your own when you can.. Do create another post each time.




    Lileeanes jewel = Extravaganza
    Red Pygmy = Atrolineare
    Red Feather = Red filligree lace
     
  2. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    'Shirazz' = 'Gwen's rose delight' = 'Geisha gone's wild' ???

    I thibnk I read somewhere that to dodge copyright restrictions, some nurseries changed the name of 'Shirazz' to another one. Not sute about that : any idea ?
     
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  3. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Brilliant Alain.
     
  4. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Numb finghers todfay...;-D
     
  5. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Might be by this evening, lol. Haven't got through all the PM's yet !!
     
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  6. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    Beni Hoshi= Ruby Stars (?)
    Carmineum= Seigen (???)
     
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  7. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    This is all good stuff, thanks I.
     
  8. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    Need to be confirmed thought, unless you already knew.
    I wouldn't want to introduce errors, D.
     
  9. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Beni hoshi definatly I, that is known as Ruby Stars.
    I'm not aware of Carmineum so can't comment, but if that is what you think it is then that is OK, it will give an idea for members to research a little more if they are thinking of buying one or the other.
     
  10. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    Ok, cheers!

    Here is a translated (German to English)definition of 'Carmineum' from a trusted German nursery Acer palmatum 'Carmineum' (Syn.: 'Seigen') Fächerahorn | Baumschule Nielsen:

    There are many interrelationships around the Sorten Carmineum ’,‘ Seigen ’and Corallinum varieties. In the book “Japanese Maples - The Complete Guide To Selection And Cultivation” by Vertrees & Gregory, ‘Carminum’ is mentioned as a synonym for Corallinum. Since I was able to compare the last ones with different sources, I am sure that these plants are really ‘Corallinum’ and that they are not similar to my ine Carmineum ’. The color is right, the growth and also the leaves are stronger or bigger in Corallinum ’. It is also mentioned that ‘Seigen’ is among other things in circulation as um Carmineum ’. Here the sheet shown as ildete Seigen ’in said book differs significantly from my‘ Carmineum ’in shape. You can see it is not easy to bring light into this jungle, let alone to understand everything. And so this puzzle has preoccupied me for many years and will continue to do so in the years to come.
     
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  11. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I think that will be good enough for everyone I. Good research and link.
     
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  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    When examples received as particular cultivars are used to form basis for comparison there had better be something specific about the backgrounds of said material that establishes them as true to name. Even clones obtained from originating nurseries some time after the original introductions were made can actually be incorrect. There having been a mix up or substitution within their own production operations at some point along the way.
     
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  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Agreed provenance is important, so it is hoped as in @Shin-Deshojo posting there is some good evidence to back up the Synonym.
     
  14. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I've had more thoughts on this thread. OK, I have taken on board the comments re Synonyms, but how about some help from Maple forum members who like me have bought a maple over the years, only to find that if you didn't have the label, it would be almost impossible to distinguish from another in your collection. I think you all recognise this, lol.
    I know M @ROEBUK has strong opinions on this and it is from a comment he made last year that made me think about doing this thread.
    If we can help each other by not spending money on a new tree that we really don't need and probably have already or almost identical, then surely this has got to be a good thing.

    Hope you all agree and will post likely twins, but might not be identical twins here.

    D
     
  15. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to talk again about the 'Seigen' cultivar but I do want to share my experience from buying two of them 3 years ago from a reputed seller based in France that I won't name to preserve this thread and his reputation fair and only focuse on the misslabeling or synonyms subject.

    The true acer palmatum 'Seigen' that we all know has bright and intense pink spring color that stand some long weeks coming from Japan is not what I experienced with my purchases so I am very disapointed and I feel the only way to get it will sadly be to buy a true imported one from Japan and not an European graft.

    I did later discovered that there is another cultivar of Seigen wich is 'Seigen Aureum' and that seems to be more likely what I have.

    Except for the buds swelling that are pink/red and the emerging leaves, as soon as the leaves fully open they do turn some brillant orange/bronze...
    Which is nice but not what I am expecting when I pay for a Seigen.
    They may be relatively young trees, but they should had shown their true colors, then later in the summer I cannot tell the difference, the leaves do looks like seigen when they are green.

    Sorry if it is somehow off topic (I am really mad about this lol).
     
  16. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    And regarding the help of the label to distinguish maples @Acerholic just mentioned.

    I used to buy some cultivars twice at time for different projects.

    So I actually have two maples that looks exactly the same, one is labelled 'Kashima' and the other lost his tag, but I think both are the sames as I can compare them and bought them at same time. I will update my post with a picture of both later:

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    They have the new leaves sometimes different as they leafed out at different moments but maybe i am wrong as I bought a lot of dwarfs cultivars that year(some kyohime but I think i lost them)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  17. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I think this very relevant I, and so many of us have experienced very similar problems. So this thread is here for those experiences to share, as well as cultivars of different names and cultivars that are so identical that the only way to ID them is with the label.
    I do remember Charlie of Amazing Maples on one of his YouTube videos, saying he had lost some labels and now has absolutely no idea what they are. I think this is telling a story, that with over 4000 + cultivars out there and countless seedlings, the liklihood of getting something so very different to what has already been produced is going to be RARE.
    Look at Japanese Princess and Mystic Mikawa for example. Is there such a difference that you would need both !!? I really don't think so.
    Re the last, I do have Japanese Princess only on my wish list as you know.
    Then there are the reticulates and ghost series. So easy to get drawn into that collection. I know that Luke @Luke’s Maples is a very keen reticulate maple lover and grower, so it would be interesting to hear his comments about this.
    Anyway I have gone on enough. So will, leave it there, for now, Lol.
     
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  18. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I think I did put too much enthousiasme in my last postings but I do agree with you on what you just said.
    I will try to calm down lol...maples are in my head 24/24.
     
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  19. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    It's a sickness I, with no known cure, lol.
     
  20. LoverOfMaples

    LoverOfMaples Contributor Maple Society

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    my understand from MrMaple, 'Shirazz' is the trade name for 'Gwen's Rose Delight' (the original name) which is a sport off of 'Geisha Gone Wild'.
     
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  21. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    That's the evidence we need, well done D.
     
  22. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    If this discussion is bound to be abounded, I think that a table (.ods, or .xls) that can be updated could be useful : column 1 with the most common names, col. 2 (and 3) with synonym(s), so when checking a name, one can choose either column by alphabetical order.

    This is a different issue : same cultivar, same name, but they look a bit different. Here, the source of the scion is the question, not the name.
     
  23. Shin-Deshojo

    Shin-Deshojo Well-Known Member

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    You are right A.
     
  24. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    That's a good idea Alain. I think that if we get a lot of replies then a post with what you have suggested would help people a lot.
     
  25. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The present variety arose as a sport from a plant of Acer palmatum `Geisha` (non-patented). This discovery was made at 90 Waitara Rd, Brixton, New Plymouth, New Zealand in the summer of 2001. Eight growth buds were removed from the originally observed plant and these were reproduced via asexual propagation via bud grafting onto Acer palmatum rootstock (a non-patented variety) in New Plymouth, New Zealand. These eight buds came into growth approximately six months later in spring and were observed to be true to the original plant. From this original propagation further bud grafts were made during following propagation seasons of January to February and the stock was increased incrementally as propagation material became available. Throughout this period the plants were observed to be true to the original parent plant. This further propagation took place at 109 Waitara Road, Brixton, New Plymouth, New Zealand.

    Japanese maple plant named `Gwen's Rose Delight`

    United States Patent: PP18728 (uspto.gov)

    The Geisha Gone Wild Japanese Maple is a unique form of the Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, and its story began in New Zealand. There, in the later decades of the last century, the Duncan & Davies nursery created a unique maple from their breeding. It has pink leaves, and they called it ‘Geisha’. It never became popular because it was not very strong, and the colors were not stable and reliable year from year. The well-known Japanese maple expert, Talon Buchholz, who has a nursery in Gaston, Oregon, imported some plants of ‘Geisha’. On one of them a branch developed with a white and green variegation, as well as the pink spring coloring. This plant was more vigorous, reliable and stable than its parent, and much better as a garden plant. Talon named it ‘Geisha Gone Wild’, because it was even more colorful and dramatic than the original. Although perhaps of a different origin, it is almost identical to other varieties called ‘Shirazz’ and ‘Gwen’s Rose Delight’.

    History and Origins of Geisha Gone Wild Japanese Maple Trees

    Geisha Gone Wild Japanese Maple.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021

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