In The Garden: Looks like a Mahonia?

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by davidgrayson, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. davidgrayson

    davidgrayson Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Victoria Canada
    file.jpeg file1.jpeg Hi, I think this is possibly a Mahonia but not sure what species.
    5 feet tall, multi stemmed spreading 6 feet, growing in Victoria.
    Thanks
     
  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
  3. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,236
    Likes Received:
    407
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Mentioning in case you're not aware - Mahonia have been renamed Berberis.
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    The history going back a ways is of botany calling mahonias Berberis and horticultural works sticking with Mahonia for these. With for instance the 2014 edition of The Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs (Royal Horticultural Society, London) maintaining Mahonia. While also saying that DNA evidence is causing more people to accept combining of the two into Berberis! But see the discussion on the page I linked to that precedes the key there, where it is pointed out that just the gross morphology by itself doesn't really support having two separate genera for this group.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  5. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,236
    Likes Received:
    407
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Thanks, @Ron B. I was just trying to say that you were actually confirming what OP was thinking about the genus.
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Meanwhile Flora of China maintains the traditional, basic morphology based separation between Berberis and Mahonia, without commenting on the more recent thinking. (Notice also at the link below the statement that - unlike all other North American mahonias - M. nervosa is considered to be related to the Asian species).

    www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=119469
     
  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,681
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    The difficulty is that Mahonia is nested within Berberis as the latter is traditionally circumscribed. Rather than merge them though, it might make more sense to retain Mahonia as one genus, and split Berberis into multiple monophyletic genera as necessary. Making gargantuan genera to maintain monophyly isn't particularly helpful.

    Similar problems with Veronica / Hebe, and Anemone / Pulsatilla / Hepatica, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    See discussion at my first link.
     
  9. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,681
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Doesn't invalidate my point, particularly when considered on a global basis! 500 very diverse species that could be segregated into multiple genera would be much more helpful in showing relationships. I've not checked but would guess there is a lot more genetic data available now too which will make assigning species to monophyletic groups much easier than it was in the early 1980s (the most recent ref at the FNA account!).
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Yes as I said above the 2014 Hillier mentions DNA analysis coming into the picture.
     
  11. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,681
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Looked up a bit, found one important paper, J. Plant Res. 117: 175–182 (2004). Turns out it's the opposite to what I thought I remembered; Berberis is nested within compound-leaved groups, so it is Mahonia sensu lato that is paraphyletic. But from their paper, I'd say there's a very good case to be made for accepting five genera, for the five main groups they show in Figs. 1 & 2; three segregates of Mahonia (two in N America and one in Asia), and two segregates of Berberis, Holarctic (mostly Eurasia, & 2 spp in N America), and South America respectively.
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,681
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    And it looks like it's been done now (except not splitting Berberis into two genera):

    Taxon 66 (6): 1371-1392 (2017)

    (abstract only, or sneak it out from sci-hub)
     
  13. davidgrayson

    davidgrayson Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Victoria Canada
     
  14. davidgrayson

    davidgrayson Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Victoria Canada
    Mahonia or Berberis isn't it too tall to be repens? It sure doesn't look like aquifolium that we usually see.
    Still stumped.
    d
     
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    19,732
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    You should be able to tell using the key and linked to descriptions on the page I gave a link to in my first answer.
     

Share This Page