Looking 4 truth re: Beni Kawa & Sangu Kaku's Color

Discussion in 'Maples' started by winterhaven, Oct 24, 2008.

  1. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    My understanding is that the red on the Sangu Kaku and most other coral bark varieties exists on the new growth only but that cold can intensify the color where present. Is this accurate?

    I ask because I've seen Sangu Kaku at the nurseries aged a few years with the coral color a third or more of the way down the main trunk(s). And it sure looks like more than the new growth is red. So what gives?

    Also I read somewhere that Beni Kawa is notable because the red bark persists on the second year shoots.

    1. Is that true?
    2. Is it true that the other Coral Bark's red does NOT persist on the 2nd year shoots?
     
  2. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    In my experience the color lasts for 3 years or more for both varieties (but it fades each year). There are some other issues that we must consider with how far back the color shows. I think exposure can cause the bark to callus over (sorta) and show the grayish brown color rather than the red. This is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, however, as most of these coral barks (particularly sango kaku) succumb easily to pseudomonas and possibly winter injury partly due (IMO) to the very thin bark.

    I guess what I'm saying is: the beautiful bark color is probably a weakness for a tree's defense mechanism. At the nursery I work at the most beautiful color specimens are the quickest to show damage in spring from which ever one of these problems does the damage. We see more of it in nursery conditions because they are completely exposed, so I would suggest putting any coral bark in a partially protected area. Some other smooth bark maples like Shishigashira show sunburn easily from this thin bark, but I have not seen evidence of pseudomonas.
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    More than one clone on the market as 'Sango kaku' as well. Recently I have noticed stock supplied by Monrovia to a local garden center as this cultivar is sporting apricot orange fall color, much more orange than usual.
     
  4. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks for the information, guys. That explains what I have observed.
     
  5. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Genetics clearly play a major role but for a given genome environmental and soil conditions could make a huge difference. One can see a field planted with hundreds of 'Sango kakus' at 'Pepinières Gaurrat' nursery and, there, all wood, including >5 years old trunks and branches, is a beautiful coral. I buy one of them and, at my place, after 2 years only the new growth is coral. This nursery is not far from my garden also in zone 8 with probably milder winters (they are closer to the Ocean). The main difference is that they have highly acidic soil and twice the rainfall I get.

    I am not drawing any conclusions, I just want to pinpoint how little we know about the processes involved with bark changing colors.

    Gomero
     
  6. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    Ron B you raise a good point I have noticed some differences between the Monrovia Sango kaku and some others. My first though was that they were grown very fast (which I believe they were), and that environmental conditions played a large part. This may prove true but I intend to graft and compare the two I've seen for a few years to see if they indeed are different.

    In my experience the Monrovia selections I've seen have gone through the nice clear yellow, into gold and then into that apricotish color. In fact I was looking closely today and the interior leaves were as clear yellow as a ginkgo. The outer leaves are showing some orange tones though.

    Let me also mention as a side note that I have seen a nearly full grown sango kaku where there was almost no red stems showing because of its age. The annual growth had slowed to a couple of inches per year and only that showed any major bark color. The fall color was amazing though.
     
  7. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    This Sangu kaku was purchased by the previous owner of our home from Home Depot. She planted it in a raised bed of almost pure compost. I've forgotten how old it is, I'll try and find out next time I talk with her. Maybe it's not showing as much bark color because the darn thing is too happy. It is growing by leaps and bounds.

    I found it interesting that at the point I took the photos, when I looked up from the base of the tree I could not see red branches or stems. But when I pulled a branch end off, I saw red on the top portion of the stems. Isn't that a feature of a different cultivar? Going off my spotty memory, isn't there a Sunrise and a Sunset - one has yellow on the bottom and red on the top and the other is the inverse? Which, come to think of it, I'd be happy if this tree were one or the other. I can find Sangu kaku of just about any size at just about any nursery.

    Oh, well. I enjoy the tree's fall color. And next Spring I'll shape it a little. I already took some off this fall (after the pics). And I'm sure I'll love the tree, no matter what cultivar it is or isn't.
     

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  8. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I don't think that's a Sangu Kaku. The bark should be grey-brown on the trunk blending into the red stems - no green stems at all. The leaves also look way too big. Here's some pics of mine for comparison...
     

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  9. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The redness varies with the season. It's a mistake to try to make cultivars as frozen in their characteristics as a piece of furniture. Apart from variations like individual specimens varying in pigmentation with the seasons and stage of growth, there is the influence of propagation method and site conditions. And an old, popular cultivar like 'Sango Kaku' may come to be represented over the years by numerous independent introductions. A friend found one with fruits on it one year and grew a batch of seedlings, a high percentage of which had red stems. This would seem to indicate a high likelihood of seedlings having been raised and put on the market as the cultivar many times.
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Waka momiji red stem has the larger sized leaves
    than a standard Sango kaku has. The old form
    Sango kaku has, after leaf out, new growth leaves
    that are yellow green (aocha) at first with older
    growth being a light green. Beni kawa has
    noticeably darker green shaded colored leaves
    both in the flushes of new growth and as seen
    in the old growth by comparison. For us here
    only the later new Summer growth will show
    the lighter toned leaves on Beni kawa in most
    years.

    Currently, my Japanese Sunrise shows no pink,
    red or coral colored bark at all. Only the newer
    late Summer new growth shows some pink
    coloration in the petioles that will hold now that
    we have had some evening and morning cooling.
    Also, the last two flushes of new growth (the
    last flush is still expanding, has not come to
    a stop yet on the middle to lower portions of
    the tree) produced the lightest colored leaves
    of the season. The trunk will eventually color
    up to a nice red after we get some frosts here.
    I've seen no real red bark or red trunk color in
    this tree until January the last few years and
    then it turned allover red as soon as we got
    some sustained cold chill.

    I am in complete agreement with what Ron B
    posted above.. As with clonal variants in other
    plants, we can see some individual differences
    in population groups of Sango kaku. Look at
    block of 100 five gallon trees in a wholesale
    nursery or even in some retail nurseries and
    see an array of slight differences in leaf, bark
    and petiole color and sometimes differences
    in the numbers of lobes. Seedling selections
    of Sango kaku, Senkaki and Waka momiji red
    stem have been propagated and have been
    sold in Oregon since the early to mid 80's.
    The more commonly seen plant sold in
    Oregon as Sango kaku was a seedling
    selection from a Sango kaku parent plant.
    It was the vigor in the "new" tree when
    young that others felt made this selected
    seedling to be more desirable than the
    parent plant was for mass duplication.
    The survival rate of the grafted individuals
    was considered to be higher as well than
    the former Maple was. We may have slightly
    lost some color to the wood in some years
    with the new clone but we got a stronger
    growing plant as a result than the former
    Sango kaku parent line plants were, once
    they were planted in the landscape. The
    primary nursery standard landscape trees
    for Sango kaku in California are grafted
    progeny from the seedling raised clone
    that came out of Oregon.

    Jim
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Although assumption that vegetatively propagated tree cultivars are all single clones (as opposed to cultivars of flowering annuals and annual vegetables, for instance, which when raised from seed and maintained by constant re-selection are obviously not single clones) this is not, in fact the case by any means - as Jim has related above. The longer and more widely a cultivar has been grown the greater the window of opportunity for multiple clones to have been put on the market under the same cultivar name. While it might seem that essentially duplicative introductions would usually instead get their own, new names in an attempt by the originator or introducer to differentiate them - and capitalize on them - a tendency to make use of the success of a well-established, already familiar name seems to be common. A result of this is independent introductions not necessarily closely similar to the true cultivar sometimes being marketed under the well-known name. In the case of the 'Bloodgood' maple we even have entire blocks of conspicuously variable seedlings being sold as the cultivar. Some stock offered here has not even been a good solid purple color, let alone that whichs offers the complete package.
     

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