Identification: Late Season Double-white

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by Janice Lin, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    My friend , Serena, found out this cherry tree strange, and she can't identify what this cultivar is. It is in the private property, so she may go back and wait for the owner's the permission to get a closer look. Another friend ,Tony, said he may carry his SLR camera to take the close-up photos. They are very enthusiastic. Any one can identify it?

    ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image0.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image7.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image6.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image4.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image3.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image2.jpeg ??_2055&14th_Serena_20210419_image1.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  2. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I would have said 'Shirotae', though it's unfashionably late, and it's been pruned to look like a bouquet instead of having its naturally spreading shape. Please ask Serena and friend to get photos close up of the stems, to see if there are hairs, and of the calyx and sepals. That last photo is pretty good, though, showing the extra sepals.
    Please discuss the ID here in this Ornamental Cherries thread, so all the photos are together.
     
  3. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    Shirotae will have pink buds open white, but this is not white for sure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2021
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Really not white? I named it "white" based on the photos. That first photo is very white. Can you ask Serena?
     
  5. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    Here comes more photos by Tonny Chan. All were taken on 04/20, except the first one , last year. No hair on the stem ,no glands.

    ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC7729.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0912.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0906.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0900.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0892.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0890-1.jpg ??_14St_TonnyChan_20210420_DSC0890.jpg
     
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  6. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Are there reasons it's not 'Ito-kukuri'? Loose ascending branches, short flowering spurs. Hairless.
     
  7. Anne Eng

    Anne Eng Generous Contributor 10 Years

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    If you can get a shot of the "prominent, darker, thread-like veins" like these on the petals of the Ito-kukuri at 2736 E. 54th (east of Vivian), that would nail the identification of your tree as Ito-kukuri. They are a river-delta network of lines, NOT like the faint lines running up and down on a lot of flowers, including Takasago (which tricked Lisa). Perhaps they appear more visible as the flower ages.

    20210418_E54Wales_Ito-kukuri_Eng_4990.jpeg 20210418_E54Wales_Ito-kukuri_Eng_4992.jpeg
     
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  8. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    Tony felt this flower is whiter then 'Ito-kukuri, and the leaves are browner than 'Ito-kukuri.
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Hmm - yesterday you said:
     
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Is this tree fragrant? There are no phylloid pistils at all here. Of the trees we know, it looks most like 'Hosokawa-nioi', but that has a knock-your-socks-off fragrance. This might have too many petals for that; I do see one leaf without an attenuated tip, in the 5th photo in the second set.
    Some of my photos of 'Ito-kukuri' have no phylloid bits, but other photos do have them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  11. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    Because the tree is inside the property, so I can't tell frangrant or not and it is not easy to take a detailed photo of the flower.

    Here are some more photos to compare . Photos taken by Tony, Sunny and Janice.
    There first and the second show the tree in 14th W , the planting location and the flower color on 4/20.
    The third and the forth, fifth show the ito-kukuri flowers and leaves color on 54th & Vivian on 4/21 . The last one is ito-kukuri in Richmond worksafe BC.

    unknownn_janice20210420_161736.jpg Ito-kukuri_14st_Tonychan_22855_n.jpg Ito-kukuri_54th_Janice20210420_171111.jpg Ito-kukuri_E54th&Vivian_SunnyChen_132754_n.jpg Ito-kukuri_E54th&Vivian_SunnyChen_185954_n.jpg Ito-kukuri_richmond_SunnyChen307741_n.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  12. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Douglas Justice has gone to see the tree and suggests 'Yokihi'. What I like about that ID is that the flowers show no phylloid pistils in the centre of the flowers. I just saw 'Ito-kukuri' and 'Ojochin' at UBCBG yesterday that were totally white, so this tree being totally white I have to think could be ok too. However, in the Kitsilano thread, the posting just before this tree is 'Yokihi'. Maybe it was not the same people who saw the 'Yokihi', on the same street (!) and this one, that I called white on the subject line. Clearly the 'Yokihi' photos in our book were taken at a different stage of blooming. These are the photos that are in the book. Is there someone who knows where both those trees are and can compare them?
    20090503_45Larch_Yokihi_Cutler_DSC03096.jpg 20130411_W45AveLarch_Yokihi_Lin_1300343c-hi-res.JPG
     
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  13. Janice Lin

    Janice Lin Active Member

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    There are more photos for identifying , taken by Sandy , who took the Yokihi, the posting just before this tree is 'Yokihi', and the unknown one in roughly the same day. Some of my friends all saw both two, because their location is just one house in between. It's hard to believe both cherry trees are the same cultivar.
    The first row is the Yokihi and the second row is an unknown one .

    Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7703.JPG Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7682.JPG Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7682.JPG Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7775.JPG Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7696.JPG Yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7691.JPG yokihi_14th_Sandy_202005_IMG_7689.JPG
    The unknown one:
    ??_14th_Sandy_202004_IMG_7790.JPG ??_14th_Sandy_202004_IMG_7792.JPG ??_14th_Sandy_202004_IMG_7788.JPG ??_14th_Sandy_202004_IMG_7782.JPG ??_14th_Sandy_202004_IMG_7779.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2021
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  14. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    OK, what about 'Hokusai', also known as 'Fukurokuju' ? Kuitert (Japanese Flowering Cherries, p. 247-249) writes them up together, yet shows a photo of different sepals of the two, which Kuitert has uploaded to ResearchGate.
    Here's a description from Fukurokuju - Keele University:
    Prunus 'Hokusai' is a Collingwood Ingram selection in 1925 from closely related clones, but identical to 'Fukurokuju'.

    A vase-shaped tree to 8 m high with a crown to 15m across. It forms large trees with big flowers - distinctive.

    Forms clusters of 3 - 5 flowers, purplish pink in bud opening to pale pink (RHS 69-C). Flowers are c.5 cm dia., with 10 - 15 petals opening to a flat plane. Flowers late April - early May. The ovary is always visible.

    Young foliage is bronze-green (RHS 152-A, 199-A).​

    The Keele site writes up 'Hokusai' separately: Hokusai - Keele University

    A medium tree to 5m, upright and vase-shaped when young but spreading with age.

    The flowers are large, semi-double, pale pink and highly scented. The young foliage is bronze-coloure, turning gree over summer and yellow in the autumn.

    It is an old cultivar introduced by Collingwood Ingram and named after a well-known Japanese artist.
    What seems to match are the calyx shape, very short peduncles, lack of phylloid pistils, flowers opening to a flat plane, wrinkled flower appearance, blooming time, and bronze new leaves.
    And it's known in Seattle.

    What doesn't work for me are the fimbriated petal tips, which I don't see much in the many photos at Cherry var. Fukurokujyu – Flower and Garden in Japan and more… (khaawsflowerpicture.com), except for one. And I'm not too convinced about the stipules.
     
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  15. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    This question is going to be moot very soon. It's hard to believe that it's the same tree that I've photographed here, but the address is the same, the house is the same and the location on the property is the same.
    I posted some photos at https://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/threads/kitsilano.36716/page-15#post-436678, and I mentioned that Green Club of BC member Jacqueline Lee has suggested that this is Cerasus serrulata ‘Nobilis’, which we would call 'Edo-zakura'. At this point, @Douglas Justice had misgivings, but that was the name I used in photos that day.

    Here are a bunch of photos from today, in which I'm calling it UnkTreeWhiteFlowers. It doesn't match the 'Edo-zakura' description in Kuitert, Japanese Flowering Cherries (Timber Press, 1999) on page 233 where he mentions mature leaves have "a relatively short acuminate top"; these leaves seem to have a long acuminate top. Also, the sepals in a photo above are not short and narrow. Today I thought it might be a very sick 'Ito-kukuri', but I don't think those stipules are "moderately to to deeply bifurcated", a characteristic Kuitert gives for 'Ito-kukuri' on page 177. Actually, I'm not convinced I saw the stipules - that should be easier to tell when the leaves are more developed.
    There are a few new leaves that seem to be missing the acuminate tip.
    UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_165923.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170007.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170035.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170059.jpg

    UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170233.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170244.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170309.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170323.jpg

    UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170351.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230428_170418.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2023
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    At Egan Davis's walk on April 30 I met Tony Chan, who contributed several of the photos above. He told me his current thought is that it's 'Taoyame'. That cultivar is described by Wybe Kuitert (Japanese Flowering Cherries, Timber Press, Portland, OR, 1999, pp 342-346):
    "Young foliage of 'Taoyame' appears with the blossoms and is perhaps the darkest red-brown of all Japanese flowering cherries. It contrasts superbly with the shell-pink flowers that have a calyx, sepals and peduncle that are equally deep wine-red, like the petioles of the young leaves."
    Tony's photos above are a little better than mine at demonstrating a calyx and a petiole closer to the colour of the dark leaves, but there are a lot of pedicels, calyces and petioles that are green, not at all dark red. Does that rule out 'Taoyame', or did we just not catch those things before they turned green?
    Here are some more photos, taken on May 2, 2023.
    UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172251.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172346.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172548.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172623.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172646.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_173012.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_173042.jpg


    UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172407.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172450.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172529.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_172540.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_173052.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_173057.jpg UnkTreeWhiteFlowers_2055W14th_Cutler_20230502_173108.jpg
     
  17. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Sorry, long preamble here - Cherry Scout Manal Ma, who was with Tony Chan last weekend at Egan's walk, conveyed my 'Taoyame' thoughts to Tony, who agreed about the differences. Manal sent me a link to a Flickr album of 'Taoyame' in England, in which I see a very similar difference between a tree blanketed in flowers and with very few flowers, in a difference of 8 days.
    The tree named "Possible Prunus 'Taoyame' " taken April 6, 2020" Possible Prunus 'Taoyame' - Leyes Lane, Kenilworth 6.4.202… | Flickr
    The same tree (same house, car, daffodils at the foot of the tree, other plants in the yard) taken April 14, 2020 Possible Prunus 'Taoyame' - Leyes Lane, Kenilworth 14.4.20… | Flickr
    Here is the tree in google street view, not in the spring.
    So, maybe I have over-reacted about the condition of this tree, though my full-bloom photos this year look nothing like the ones taken in 2021. On the other hand, that UK tree out of bloom has a lot of terminal branches, whereas our tree in Vancouver has very few of the thinner flowering branches.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2023

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