Koto no Ito, small orange leaves in spring?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by ChrisUk, May 8, 2022.

  1. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I was away for the week end and when I came back, the first thing I did was to check on the trees.
    Two Deshojos have now got weird leaves and one of them has got all its leaves shriveling. I've put them in full shade for now and see if they'll recover.

    The Koto No Ito has a few leaves pink/ light orange.

    Is this normal for spring leaves for Koto no Ito?

    I was wondering if it could be because these ones may be receiving more sun that the other ones, although not all the orange ones receive sun? Or could it be the repotting (slip potting) I mentioned here a few weeks ago that stressed it out and need some time to recover?

    I hope it's not something more serious.

    Thank you
     

    Attached Files:

    AlainK likes this.
  2. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Any re potting stresses them out somewhat Chris. You have done the right thing in placing them in some shade for a while. Tbh I don't see anything to worry about. New leaves on Koto no Ito are often this colour. Just keep on top of the watering and all will be fine.
     
    AlainK likes this.
  3. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Thank you Derek

    I'll keep checking them and the other ones.

    And I've noticed (nothing surprising really!) that the more maples you get, the more likely you ll get issues... I've now got some issues with quite a few of them. I've also noticed that one in the ground has started havig some black streaks coming from the trunk.. Trying to spray some copper mixture, but I'm not too optimist in the long term. Maybe I should dedicate as an area as a 'quarantine area'...
     
  4. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Hi Chris, definatly quarantine. The black streaks sounds suspiciously like Verticulum. Copper won't do any good with this unfortunately. No known cure !!
    Sorry to hear this news, but some maples if they are large and strong live with this and do OK.
    I know I'm probably telling you something you already know, but do use rubbing alcohol on your secateurs between all cuts and especially between trees.
     
  5. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    yes, the black streaks are like this:
    IMG_6567.jpg

    Despite the tree being a few years old (that's a skeeters broom), and having gone to leaf very nicely this year, there's that part that I am quite worried about.
    Thankfully, there's no other maple tree closeby...

    Yes, since last winter I've being using rubbing alcohol, after reading all about this on this forum :-)
     
  6. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    There is every chance that Central branch / trunk will fail at some time. It will need to be removed to save the whole tree. Slightly the wrong time now IMO, but in a few weeks when the sap is not rising would be OK. The reason I say this is because it is a major cut. If it was a smaller branch then it would be ok to remove a diseased branch at any time.
    Glad your using the rubbing alcohol btw.
     
    ChrisUk likes this.
  7. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    296
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    By 'sap is rising' you mean the stem will 'bleed' some sugary water if it is cut?
     
    ChrisUk and Acerholic like this.
  8. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Good morning J, yes it will bleed at this time of year. But in a few weeks it should be fine for Chris to remove a large diseased branch.
     
  9. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    296
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    Of course, you know, D, that pruned stems can develop stem pressure AFTER they have been pruned!

    I often prune my Japanese maple bonsai so early in late winter that they 'bleed'. After three or four days some blackish stuff starts growing on the sugary residue near the cut. Frequently I wash it off, a few days later, with a gentle sprinkling from my garden hose; sometimes rains wash it away, and otherwise it has remained, affecting no ills to my bonsai. My objectives with Japanese maples in the landscape are somewhat different, so I prune most of them later, but still well ahead of bud break. It is unusual for my landscape trees to 'bleed', but they have on occasion and there was no measurable effect on them either. My point is that fear of pruning when 'the sap is rising' is a mistaken notion.

    Getting back to @ChrisUk's tree: My advice is to take it off and take it off now, Chris, if you want the best chances of saving what is left of your tree.

    On the other hand, Chris, you may be willing to risk the tree for the sake of possibly understanding things about this pathogen's effects. Cambium has died (that is generally what 'black' bark means) which usually triggers CODIT reactions that often clog all the xylem lumens of thin stems, preventing any future transport of water up the branch. The result will be that buds break and leaves weakly emerge but never harden; hanging lumpy until they desiccate (i.e., become brown and crispy). In the meantime, the extent of black bark will probably have expanded. Shrinking, on the other hand could indicate that the infection could be overcome by the tree (or with an appropriate remedy, whatever that might be)

    The difficulty in this time of year is that nothing is moving anywhere. There are no leaves to cause water to flow up the tree in the wood. There is no photosynthesis going on to cause the good stuff they make to flow down the tree's in the inner bark. A pathogen in the wood will progress upward during the growing season (because of the upward water flow in the woods); one in the inner bark or cambium downward. But, no fluids are actually moving right now. It is far from obvious that it is verticillium that has infected your tree, IMHO, though it is characteristically a cool spring disease. It could be pseudomonas syringe or some similar bacterium. These are air-borne winter infections (as opposed to verticillium that is soil-borne). I see no evidence or note by you of any associated bark wounds that are usually required for verticillium to gain entry. So the evidence is more indicative of a bacterial cause or if some pathogen that can subtly penetrate bark in winter/early-spring. Regardless, the longer infected tissue remains on the tree, the greater is the risk of it spreading to the entire tree. But, as I said, you may be willing to take this risk to learn what you can from this circumstance (i.e., scientific curiosity).


    Regarding stem pressure in maples, Maple Sap Uptake, Exudation, and Pressure Changes Correlated with Freezing Exotherms and Thawing Endotherms is one of a multitude of scholarly papers (Google Scholar is very useful to find them; open access or behind a pay-wall) on maple stem pressure that may be of interest.
     
    ChrisUk, AlainK and Acerholic like this.
  10. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Good morning J, I fully agree with your comments, my only concern is pruning in Spring after bud break. I have carried out surgical pruning in the past during April/ May to see days and days of bleeding. Now nothing occurred the same season regarding vitality, but the following year the tree was definatly showing signs of less vigorous growth. So for this reason many years ago and now, I would not carry out any pruning in the weeks after bud break. But I would carry out surgical pruning at beginning of June, when no bleeding occurs and there is fast healing. And at any other time of the year.
    Now this is from my experience with my maples and I totally respect other theories.
     
    ChrisUk and 0soyoung like this.
  11. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    296
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    I must say that I've repeatedly encountered this term 'sap rising' that you, D, and others use. I still don't understand what y'all are trying to describe.

    When I fist started paying attention to trees (about 15 years ago) I noticed that in spring many Japanese maples started showing new buds low on the tree and then a little higher, progressing upward and I thought "Aha! Sap is rising." But over the course of the next few years, I ascertained that this wasn't/isn't what anyone meant/means = just my misunderstanding.
     
    ChrisUk likes this.
  12. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Thank you @Osoyoung and @Acerholic so much for all this information!

    Would recommend me cutting where I've made the yellow mark (quite close to the intersection with the left branch) or a bit higher up? Once cut, does the cut need to be protected with some sealing wound paste? (I think people are really divided in two camps about this).

    Screenshot 2022-05-13 at 15.21.25.png

    Also, where I am not sure whether the tree is really healthy...
    In november last year, one of the branches, attached higher up to the left branch on the photo had lots of its leaves dry earlier than when the other leaves on the tree fell. It was like that:
    upload_2022-5-13_15-28-22.jpeg
    It looked like those branches kind of died.

    This spring, these branches look all fine and all well leafed out...

    Thanks again!
     
  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Hi Chris, I'm in the camp of not sealing at all. So thats my advice. Re the leaves going crispy last year at the top of the branch, that's very typical of water and nutrients not getting to them due to Verticulum.
     
  14. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    296
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    Verticillium typically does this in the springtime, not fall and usually only gains entry to a branch through a bark wound. We discussed this at some length in JM with some curled leaves on different twigs. Verticillium infection is in the wood, so it tends to spread upward from the point of entry.

    Nectria canker, on the other hand, typically causes these symptoms in late summer and/or early fall, as you observed @ChrisUk. About the same time it will express little red fruiting bodies in the central area(s) of the infection. It is spread primarily by contaminated pruning tools, AFAIK. Furthermore, and unlike verticillium, trees can be cured of nectria infections by cauterization of the infected area (plus a bit) with a butane torch. The infection is in the cambium as well as the inner bark and outer layers of wood, so it tends to simply spread out from the point of entry (a pruning wound, typically).

    Pseudomonas syringe is another common pathogen. It is bacterial and kills the cambium causing the 'black bark'. Big trees reportedly can overcome P.s. It gains entry via pruning wounds as well as winter freezing where the bacterium acts as a nucleation site for ice crystal formation. Pruning during or within 2 or 3 days of rain is a circumstance that makes trees vulnerable.

    Moral of the story, IMHO, is to religiously sanitize pruning tools before/after use and, when dealing with infected tissues, after every cut. And, don't be cutting in the rain (go dancing instead).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
    ChrisUk and AlainK like this.
  15. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Update on the Skeeter's broom..
    After I cut it, I took some photos to show that it seems to be Verticilium Wilt... The dark ring is a sure-tell sign, isn't it?

    I just need to enjoy it until it dies :(

    IMG_6719.jpg IMG_6721.jpg IMG_6718.jpg IMG_6717.jpg
     
    Acerholic likes this.
  16. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    11,629
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Yes it does!!
    That can be years and years Chris. Some maples even when big enough cope with Verticulum. So don't give up on it. Do update the forum from time to time on how its getting on. Good luck.
     
    ChrisUk likes this.
  17. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,964
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    Maybe so, maybe not.

    To me, it doesn't look that bad. I would first apply hydrogen peroxide on the wound, then cut it back a little and apply copper (Bdx mx), and apy some sealant on the wound.

    Then take a bodhran and dance and chant naked around the tree and burn sage.

    You can skip the last step, oeuf corse (that was a joke). The rest of the tree looks healthy, suppressing this "contaminated" (?) branch could save the rest.

    And yes "sealant" will definitely help on cuts or wounds that size, wood glue, aluminium tape, "Japanese sealant", ..., etc. I say. J'affirme !
     
    ChrisUk likes this.
  18. opusoculi

    opusoculi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Bordeaux sous-west of France
    Where do you see black or grey rings ?
    The large central zone is ochre, golden or light brown, this is not the usual colour of the wood, but due by pseudonomas or xanthonomas bacteriosis; typical, no doubt; and from a long years ago.
    Beneath the bark, the phloem is brown all around the cut. A cut will not heal with a dead phloem; perhaps with a lot of years.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
    ChrisUk likes this.
  19. ChrisUk

    ChrisUk Active Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Thank you everyone! Not giving up, however, I won't walk too often in that zone to avoid spreading to other trees any nasties that could be in the soil. Some other branches have some darker streaks (in particular the branch where the leaves became crisp before autumn), so I'll see.

    @AlainK , I got your joke (as I am French ;)), it made me smile ;-)
     
  20. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,964
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    Nobody's perfect, are they ?... <LOL>
     
    ChrisUk likes this.

Share This Page