Kigi Nursery & UBC Plant Photo's

I just noticed that Kigi Nursery added themselves as a Maple resource. Kigi has some good photo's in their online catalog. At least a few of them are from this forum. You can find Gomero's pic of 'Okushimo' there and my pic of 'Utsu semi'.

I emailed this vendor a bunch of times about taking photo's w/o permission and received no reply.On another site I mentioned that my pics were used w/o permission. Kigi responded that they hired someone to find the photos and they didn't know they were swiped. Kigi has had plenty of time to ask permission. I haven't been contacted.

 

Agreed, their use of images posted to these forums is obvious. I'll take you on your word that you've communicated with them, and I've removed the link. It can be revisited once they sort out the copyright issues.

 

Thanks Poetry, their A. japonicum 'Vitifolium' is another taken from the Photo Gallery.

 

They say a criminal likes to return to the scene of the crime.....

 

Looked at their site and it seems they claim copyright to the photos.

 

Thank you for contacting us on this issue. We are trying hard to fix any wrong doing in photo swapping. When we first launched our site I hired a horrible IT person to bring our products to market. Some photos were taken without permission and we are trying to work them all out. I have removed all the trees mentioned in this thread.

We are just trying to provide this country with many JM's at unbeatable pricing. Hope some people out there want to support our efforts instead of just blasting us on every blog they can. I never thought the tree business could be so cruel. Anyone wanting to know how our actual customers feel about us check out our feedback on e-bay under bambootrader or kigi Nursery.

Justen

 

Justen, Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Hey Justin,

I think it is good that you are trying to make the right corrections to the problem. Sometimes mistakes happen, I hope you make out ok from this mistake.

Krautz

 

Hey Justin,

I have to say something here about my mixed feelings, I purchased a grafted size “Ao Kanzashi” (and some others) from you last month because the “Ao Kanzashi” photo you posted on your web looks so different from the one I already have, and I thought the comparison will be quite interesting. When I opened the shipping carton I was amazed by the solid package and the healthy quality plants you’ve shipped to me, not to mention the most reasonable cost ,ever, that you offered. I told myself what a JM resource I found and I’d definitely buy more from you. But now knowing those photos may not snapped from your won parent tree collection, I do not know what the leave color and variegation to expect on my new baby next spring, I feel like a fool, so please understand my disappointment and frustration. Mistakes happen, I'm glad you're trying to fix it and I'm sure your business will be fine with the good service and qulity plants that you have been offered, so thank you and good luck!
Regards,

Joe

 

Photos on nursery web sites and in print catalogs are often not taken at the nursery. The only instance where I have happened to notice that most pictures on the web site are taken of the actual stock in the nursery is with forestfarm in Oregon.

 

Justen,

Thanks for working this out and being responsible. I've bought plants from you before and thought they were great, and I plan on doing so again. I'm not much of a photographer, but you are welcome to use any photos of cultivars I have posted here. Just be sure to give credit for the photo to the UBC forum. I appreciate a vendor who tries to do the right thing. :)


Take care,

K4

 

Re: O.T.- content below not designed to come after anyone in particular.

Ron, you are probably correct that only a
handful of nurseries have shown photos
of their own trees for online sale purposes.

Granted, a 6-9" tall one year graft is a
hard sell but people have the right to
know what they are getting when they
buy the Maple online from an auction
host or from a web site as shown in
the photo.

Purporting the mature or juvenile tree
in photo as being the same in name
as the tree being sold or auctioned
may be a hoodwink as many times
it has been. I know of one Maple
in particular such as Tiger Rose
in which two nurseries I know
have shown online photos of two
distinctly different plants by the
same name. I can yield to one
of those nurseries as I am more
familiar with their Maple they are
selling (I know who they got their
stock plant from) than I am with
the other nursery that is marketing
the same named plant but is not
the same Maple and they know it!

A while back I knew of two
nurseries that stole photos
we have posted in this forum.
One is a member of their
host states Association of
Nurserymen and the other is
not a licensed nursery in their
home state. At first we felt
good about someone feeling
a photo or two of our Maples
were good enough to use for
resale purposes until we later
realized the Maple they are
trying to sell using our photos
to help them along probably
is not the same plant as ours.
From a nurserymen's standpoint
this is entirely unethical, certainly
is unprofessional to not state
where their plants for resale
came from if they were not
grafted and grown on by the
online nursery. A lot of Maples
online have been sold to most
anyone that calls themselves
a nursery from an Oregon
wholesale grower. Many of
those plants are misnamed
and the end consumers are
unaware that the Maple they
are buying online is not what
the growing nursery is calling
them.

I still feel there are some forum
member nurseries in this forum
such as Eastfork and Mendocino
Maples that are better bets for
people to buy their young Maples
from. At least then we can go
back in and track who has what
as their sourcing for the plants they
are selling can be documented. We
do not have sourcing documentation
from a host of online sellers as it is
too easy to bluff their way through
as to not tell, even when asked, that
the Maples they are selling did not
originate from them.

Herein is what I feel should not
ever be let to happen in this forum.
People with a zero for posts in this
forum should not be allowed to list
themselves as a seller of Maples
unless they can prove they are
members of their state horticultural
association of nurserymen. Are
they a bona fide nursery or not or
are they just calling themselves a
nursery in name to support a new
enterprise when in fact they are just
a nursery wantabe or wishabe and
can get away with the nursery name
only because they offer plants for
sale online, yet there are no on site
in person sales at all. This is
not a nursery that does not offer
plants on site to the public or
to other nurseries in the same
capacity of being a wholesale
nursery to other nurseries.
Anyone can get a resale
license from their home
state to sell plants but
not just anyone can call
themselves a nursery
and be legitimate is how
it is supposed to work.

In case it ever comes to this, no,
a nursery in name only that is not
licensed with their home state are
not permitted to use any of our
photos we have posted in this
forum for commercial purposes.
I want a guarantee the Maple
they are selling is the same
as what we have posted in
this forum. Chances are
greater they are not going to
be same Maple and I'll give
two examples why. The Butterfly
we bought by that name from
a retail nursery is actually the
old form Kocho nishiki from
Japan. [The Maple in a garden
that Idacer posted photos of
in Boise that led to confusion
is the Oregon Butterfly by
comparison] The Kotohime we
posted photos of is the aka
form. I doubt there are more
than five people in the world
that still have that Maple in their
collections. For general overview
we lump it and call the Maple a
Kotohime. For technical purposes,
we separate it and call the Maple
Aka kotohime.

Jim

 

Daniel's post #2 in this thread www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3316 is quite clear regarding the copyright and "Image Use Policy" of the UBC forums.

 

Re: O.T. concepts

We have had an evolution so to speak with the Forum
Charter.

Back in another thread I mentioned that I feel the
photos we have posted in these forums are now
the ownership of the UBC CPR forum. I have
not changed my view any from that. I will say
however, if someone were to ask for permission
to use our photos for their commercial enterprise
and the question gets back to me from the UBC
CPR for my approval, the answer will be no.
Unless I know them, know of them or if they
can show to me that the Maple they are
wanting and trying to sell is the same Maple
as the photos of ours they want to use.
Asking for permission goes a long ways
but to take someone’s photo for the purpose
of personal gain, no matter how it is done
or who else might have done it, is not kosher
no matter how you look at it. For personal,
private use is another matter altogether.

Not many times have we had someone that
was indirectly or directly involved in a flam-
flam be a member of this forum. Usually
it was someone else away from the forum
that had no interest at all in becoming a
member among us in this forum. I suggest
we know more of the facts at hand before
we go around condemning someone that
is now a bona fide member of this forum.
Ebay feedback does give us a means to
use to check up on the seller. So does
information passed around in this forum
by forum members that either know the
seller or have had personal contact
with the seller. I have no knowledge of
the seller in question either way and thus
changed the title of my last post with an
O.T. - off topic heading not to indict them
without foundation. At least they did not
go away and hide like so many others
surely would have. They did not run
from the impropriety which is rare to
me. Looking forward to reading what
they have to offer as members of this
forum.

By the way, the Maple that IDacer posted
photos of was in the general Maple forum.
In case anyone wants to go back and find
that thread. Also, that was Mr. Vertrees’
Maple that originated from seed taken
from Kocho nishiki and has been and still
is sold in nursery trade circles as Butterfly.

Jim

 

Has anyone ever seen the show "The View".... Anyway I just thought I would start with a little laugh. I would like to give some history about us. We are a family owned business since 2005. We are raising our 4 little girls up in this trade and I hope to pass the business off to them some day. We are not a fly-by-night shop with little interest in integrity. The future of the nursery business is going online. Most people start off with a retail store and dabble online we started online and have exploded in sales. My business plan includes keeping our prices as low as we can by running little overhead expenses. Most all of us (online or retail stores) buy our plants from about 15-20 different growers. Of these growers how many different scion wood suppliers do you think they have??? I am on a first name basis with most all of the major players in the growers world of the Northwest USA and I can tell you that there is no way that anyone offering 150+ cultivars is supplying you with a parent stock picture of that tree most of the time. I believe it was Sam from Eastfork Nursery that said they use Buchholtz pics with permission. His pictures are from all around the world... so before people want to start pointing fingers at who's who in this industry, get your facts right.

I am doing my part to fix a beginners mistake of allowing someone else to build my store. I appreciate all of your comments, and look forward to hearing worthwhile advise for the growth of my business and the industry as a whole. I do understand that a lot of you are weary of new faces in the trade, hopefully that will pass with time.

Justen

 

>I am on a first name basis with most all of the major players in the growers world of the Northwest USA...they use Buchholtz pics with permission. His pictures are from all around the world... so before people want to start pointing fingers at who's who in this industry, get your facts right<

He spells it Buchholz.

 

The future of the nursery industry is not online.
Yes, many of the "big boys" do have web sites
but most of those nurseries are wholesale growers
and do not sell to upstart nurseries in name only
that are not current or past members of their state
associations of nurserymen. Used to be a mandated
requirement for all wholesale plant sales, still is in
some parts of the country.

Jim

 

On the other hand, Raintree's sales exploded when they went online.

 

Mr. Shep, have looked around for "the UBC CPR forum", but failed to find it. Maybe you could provide us, that are unfamiliar to it, with a link, thanks.

 

I can provide a link to it: UBC Botanical Garden and Centre for Plant Research Forums.

UBC BGCPR.

Most people shorten it to UBC BG but I guess UBC CPR is equally valid.

 

LOL, thanks maf, for the clarification.

 

No probs, I didn't twig the meaning of CPR at first either.

The thing about this whole affair that puzzles me is that Kigi is only now rectifying the theft when Poetry originally informed them of the problem over a year ago. What is different now?

 

Kigi/Justen:
"I am doing my part to fix a beginners mistake of allowing someone else to build my store"

I feel that explanation is bogus. I sent messages to Kigi's Ebay store and website well over a year ago. Did "someone else" ignore those messages?

Kigi/Justen:
"We are trying hard to fix any wrong doing in photo swapping".
Properly referred to as 'photo swiping'.

In response to Maf's question "What's different now" .....

In my view the difference is that the practice has been exposed and this is damage control. Here, on this thread, a simple apology and a request for permission would have gone a long way. Instead Kigi uses the exposure as a marketing opportunity:

Kigi/Justen:
"We are just trying to provide this country with many JM's at unbeatable pricing."

"family owned business since 2005. We are raising our 4 little girls up in this trade and I hope to pass the business off to them some day. We are not a fly-by-night shop with little interest in integrity."

Justen mentions being being "blasted" and "cruel blogs" yet he still hasn't apologized for using these photos or ignoring messages.

I am less confident about Kigi being on UBC than when I initiated the thread.

 

Re: O.T. concepts

Expect that could be somewhat controversial, as some members are professional photographers and have posted their photos under the existing Forum Charter.

 

Re: O.T. concepts

I suppose I should step in and say that the charter as posted is current -- and the part about image use remains the same as it was when originally posted in June 2004.

I'm not interested in a rights grab.

(PS maf -- see 5.15 of the charter re: editing posts re: your Dec 12 post -- I don't think it matters in this instance, since the thread reads the same with or without that posting (I think?), but just something to be aware of)