Identification: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late sea

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re "Vancouver's horticultural history". Expect you have a copy of unpublished "Vancouver's Heritage Tree Inventory - A Collection of Great Trees in the City {1983}" by E. Whitelaw and C. Sihoe. Just in case, apparently a copy at Van Duesen Library. Haven't read it , maybe some useful info.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2007
  2. mononoke

    mononoke Member

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    I am new to this forum. I read the Shirofugen and Shogetsu thread but still cannot tell the difference. Can someone help me identify the type in the pictures? Thanks!
     

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  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Shirofugen or Shogetsu?

    'Pink Perfection'.
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan - Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    [Edited by wcutler: It looks like these have been identified as Kanzan.]

    Hi, we're back. Scouts are secretly sending me photos of pink flowers, after I already told them I thought these things look identical. Today's posting features what I think are pink perfection flowers, with a range of tree shapes. Is everything a pink perfection in Vancouver, or do Pink Perfection come out earlier than Kanzan? I haven't seen anything that doesn't have vexillate filaments (flag-like extensions above the anthers). I don't remember seeing the extra sepal last year, but a photo a scout sent me has one too. These are arranged tree then its blossom in all cases, and locations are in Vancouver.

    Broughton and Burnaby Sts.
    20080417_BroughtonBurnaby_PP_Cutler_3863r.jpg 20080417_BroughtonBurnaby_PP_Cutler_3870r.jpg 20080417_BroughtonBurnaby_PP_Cutler_3873r.jpg

    Davie at Broughton
    20080417_DavieBroughton_PP_Cutler_3837r.jpg 20080417_DavieBroughton_PP_Cutler_3839cr.jpg

    Oppenheimer Park
    20080420_OPpenheimerPk_PP_Cutler_4100r.jpg 20080420_OPpenheimerPk_PP_Cutler_4107r.jpg

    Triumph at Salisbury
    20080420_TriumphSalsbury_PP_Cutler_4091r.jpg 20080420_TriumphSalsbury_PP_Cutler_4097r.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2008
  5. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan ?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    [Edited by wcutler: It looks like this has been identified as Kanzan.]

    This tree has branches that I think of as Kanzan construction - thick upright branches, very few thin filler branches. It's a young tree, so for once it's not a matter of seeing a young branchy tree compared with a 50-year-old tree. It also has what I think are vexillate filaments (flag-like extensions above the anthers) and has some nice teeth on the sepals; both of these I thought were characteristic of Pink Perfection and not Kanzan.
    20080422_FalseCr_Kanzan_Cutler_4394r.jpg 20080422_FalseCr_Kanzan_Cutler_4410r.jpg 20080422_FalseCr_Kanzan_Cutler_4409r.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2008
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Wrong coloring and habit for 'Pink Perfection'.
     
  7. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    This tree showed up last year in posting #6 and we thought it was a Pink Perfection. The next photo shows it in front of its neighbour, which is similar to the ones I posted as Pink Perfection?? in posting #29. Notice how different the leaf colour and blossom colour are. I think the tree looks like the California trees in posting #27, which Ron identified as Pink Perfection.
    20080422_Davie_PP_Cutler_4368r.jpg 20080422_Davie_PP_Cutler_4361r.jpg 20080422_Davie_PP_Cutler_4362r.jpg 20080422_Davie_PP_Cutler_4363r.jpg


    This is the blossom from the neighbouring tree.
    20080422_Davie_PP2_Cutler_4366r.jpg

    So here's the question. If this tree is Pink Perfection, then does that make everything else that's darker than that Kanzan? That will be easy. Can we forget about vexillate filaments and toothed sepals and upright vs drooping branches and say that those are not minimal differences? Was Pink Perfection just some grower's fancy new name one year for the same old Kanzan?

    If the answer to the question is 'no', do we have to pick a new name for some trees to confuse with Kanzan?
     
  8. Joseph Lin

    Joseph Lin Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    As I read the flower characters in the book of Japanese Flowering Cherries by Wybe Kuitert and my observations in 2007. Some more reliable features of both cherries as follow:
    1. number of petals:
    Kanzan has 23~28 petals (mostly 28).
    Pink Perfection has 28~40 petals.

    2. diameter of flowers
    Kanzan less than 5 cm vs. Pink Perfection 5~6 cm

    3. size of the petal
    Kanzan 1.9~2.3 cm x 1.3~1.7 cm (width)
    Pink Perfection 2.1~2.5 cm x 1.7~2.5 cm (width)
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    So the ones I posted with the subject: Pink Perfection?? and the one I posted with the subject: Kanzan?? are both Kanzan? And so far, the only Pink Perfections posted are the California trees and the very young one?
     
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan - Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    [Edited by wcutler: It looks like these have been identified as Kanzan.]

    OK the one flower from this tree I took home to pull apart had 6 sepals, diameter measured 4.8 cm (Kanzan) but had 30 petals (Pink Perfection), one of which measured 2.2cm x 1.6cm (Kanzan) and the other I measured came to 2.4cm x 1.8cm (Pink Perfection). This is not a reasonable way to tell these things apart.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 28, 2008
  11. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    To be honest, I think that counting and measuring is somewhat over-rated. This year, the flowers just look different to me. Petal and calyx colour, pedicel length and timing are all a bit off. It wouldn't surprise me if, in any given year, the number of petals or their size differed between the Netherlands, Japan and Vancouver. I think it's really important that people try not to be "absolute" about anything, particularly biological systems. Better that through familiarity and close observation, we get a better understanding of "die gestalt." Agreed, we need information to initially differentiate the various cultivars before we "get it." However, we have to keep in mind that the information we're given may sometimes be misleading or even wrong.

    The trees look like 'Kanzan' to me. Too stiff and upright, and the pink with too much blue in it to be anything other than 'Kanzan'. But then, there may be more than one 'Kanzan' in cultivation, and this might account for the petal variation. Everywhere I look, 'Pink Perfection' seems to be a bit later this year, so I wouldn't expect to see it at the same stage as 'Kanzan', anyway. It should be relatively simple to distinguish them.

    Now, I've heard that vexillate filaments are being reported in the flowers of other cultivars this year. Please, someone post a photograph. This, I'd like to see.
     
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    First, I'd need to get straight what the vexillate filaments are. Based on what I understood from your posting below where you talk about them, I've been posting blossom photos of what you say are Kanzans that I thought showed them. Was it my statement you're referring to? I meant I've seen them on everything pink. But it sounds like I've misunderstood what I'm looking for. And you told us Ichiyo and something else (Ito-Kukuri?) have them, so you're looking for a photo of them on something else?
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    What do you look for that looks different from what's pictured in posting #29?
     
  14. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Vexillate filaments are flag-like extensions on the filaments of stamens. Recall that the stamen is composed of a thread-like filament upon which is borne a pair of anther sacs. Stamens are borne in the centre of the flower, in a ring or whorl, surrounding the carpel(s) (a.k.a. pistils) and inside the whorl of petals.

    Vexillate filaments are still recognizable as stamens, because of the presumably functional anthers and filaments.

    Vexillate filaments are often very small extensions of filament tissue. In other words, merely extensions of the filament above the anther. They appear as ragged, white tag-ends on the tips of the stamens in 'Pink Perfection'. Please look at the images I posted in this thread on 22 April 2007. Vexillate filaments are not visible in the thumbnails, but are easily made-out in 4 of the 5 images. Note also the images I posted 16 April 2207, before I knew what to look for. However, they are there, as well.

    Staminodes are borne in precisely the same place as stamens, since they are mutated stamens. Staminodes often display some developmental affinity with the stamen (such as a narrowed, thread-like base or aborted anther), but the flag part is considerably more petal-like than stamen-like.

    The petalloid is further along the developmental pathway toward the complete petal. There are generally no discernible remnants of either anthers or filaments visible, but the petalloid is still somewhat distorted or incomplete, compared with a regular petal.

    There is, of course, a continuum of forms between normal stamens (i.e., no filament extensions) and complete petals that includes vexillate filaments, staminodes and petaloids. It is all essentially the same tissue. Note the flag-like extension on one of the stamens visible in the "it could be 'Ojochin'" thread (far left image), and another in the 'Mikuruma Gaeshi' thread (2nd photo in the 7th post). I would call these staminodes, rather than vexillate filaments.

    In 'Kanzan', there are apparently purple vexillate filaments, but these only appear at the "end of flowering." This is what I'd like to see, plus images of anything else that people think are vexillate filaments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    The two cultivars are really quite different, 'Pink Perfection' is more like 'Shogetsu' than 'Kanzan'. The latter is so numerous that variation is seen that may lead to confusion. All the limited number of correctly identified 'Pink Perfection' I have seen in person and in photos were the same and readily recognized. Any claimed to be that one should be a small, open tree with an arching habit (when mature) and blobs of flowers with bare spaces between, as though something had exploded. Its flowers look like ice cream with their candy pink margins and white centers.
     
  16. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Beautifully described. Sublimely beautiful flowers on an ugly tree.
     
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    'Pink Imperfection'?
     
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Vexillate filaments

    What about in Mayling and Willy's Takasago photo, of the six foreground flowers arranged in roughly this formation //, the left line (they're slanted more, so it's the top line). And in the left of the three in the bottom of those two lines, that's a staminode, yes? But vexillate filaments aren't exactly baby staminodes because they're on top of the anther, not replacing it? I think there are other vexillate filaments in the bottom right photo in that posting too.

    And doesn't Mayling and Willy's middle photo on the bottom in this Killarney posting of a Kanzan tree and blossoms have at least one and maybe two vexillate filaments?

    And what about on two of the uppermost three stamens in the Kanzan photo in this posting?


    Ron, LOL (is laughter allowed on serious boards such as this??).
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2008
  19. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    I would call all of these staminodes, except for the classic vexillate filaments in the 'Kanzan' in Wendy's last posting (Akebono & Kanzan - Fairview, Granville Island Sutcliffe Park). Clearly, the trees appear to be good examples of 'Kanzan'. (Bravo for the excellent photograph, which shows the appropriate level of detail.) I hope someone will watch to see if these (few) vexillate filaments turn purple in the end, as Kuitert describes.
     
  20. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    We all turn purple in the end.
     
  21. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan - Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    I was turning purple at the thought of finding that flower again.

    So you'd think I'd be happy now that we finally arrived at what I wanted all along - to just call all those things Kanzan, except for the ones that are clearly not. Well, it's going to take me while to accept that trees that can look as different as the first and last of these three could be called the same thing (Kanzan). The only thing that helps is that I don't have to decide which way the one in the middle goes. Also, we've done a similar thing on the Takasago thread, where the Stanley Park trees are so much bushier, with so many infill branches, yet we're saying they're the same as the one in the original description. It would seem that what a tree looks like is one of the least important features.

    That being said, see my next posting for a Pink Perfection.
     

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  22. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Pink Perfection - Large showy double peachier pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Here are four Pink Perfections on Davie at Richards (in Vancouver), outside the Choices Market. I don't even have to ask for confirmation. Unless they're something we haven't even considered. Although a lot of the blossoms don't have the pink outside/white centre, some of them do, and the colour difference of the blossoms and the leaves compared to the neighbouring Kanzans is immediately obvious. The photos aren't clear, but you can still see some serrated sepals. [Edited by wcutler 2015apr16: these trees are no longer there, I mention just in case you were going to go look at them.]
     

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    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  23. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Posted on April 29,2008.

    1.
    I found 2 pink double cherry tree at the residential buildings at the South-west corner of 49th & Alberta to go to Langara Golf course. At that time I thought they were Pink Perfection. Because you can see phylloid styles almost in every flower. And tree shape is quite different from Ichiyo near Fairview Golf Course.
    But now after I read Wendy's posting, I think they might be Ichiyo.

    20080429_Alberta&LancaraGolfCourse_Kanzan&Ukon_Izaki 001.jpg 20080429_Alberta&LancaraGolfCourse_IchiyoOrPinkP_Izaki 003.jpg

    20080429_Alberta&LancaraGolfCourse_IchyoOrPinkP_Izaki 008.JPG 20080429_Alberta&LancaraGolfCourse_IchiyoOrPinkP_Izaki 009.jpg

    2.
    I took pictures of Kanzan flowers. Most of all Kanzan flowers I saw have two phylloid Styles.At the third picture you can see inside. The bottom of phylloid styles are really like leaves!

    20080429_Kanzan_Izaki 002.JPG 20080429_Kanzan_Izaki 012A.JPG 20080429_Kanzan_Izaki 021.JPG

    I Picked up those flowers on E 63rd & Main.

    20080429_63&Main_Kanzan_Izaki 004.jpg 20080429_Killarney_Kanzan_Izaki 002.jpg 20080429_Killarney_Kanzan_Izaki 004.jpg

    3.
    If [1] are not Pink Perfection, I remembered the pictures I took near The Stone Grill Restaurant (under Granville Bridge). They are located at the court Yard of the building next to the restaurant Parking.

    20080423_Granville&BeachAve_PinkPerfection_Izaki 015.JPG 20080423_Granville&BeachAve_PinkPerfection_Izaki 024.JPG
    [Edited 2010Oct29 by wcutler:] I want to comment here, because I indicated in the next posting that these were all 'Kanzan'. We have determined in later postings that most of the trees at the Stone Grill location are 'Pink Perfection'.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2010
  24. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Mariko, I could be arrested for talking about biology considering how little I know, but regarding item 2 in your posting, the bottoms of the phylloid pistils (which include the styles) are what look like leaves (that's what the word "phylloid" means - looking like a leaf), and it's the female tissue that does that.

    What's on top of the stamens are anthers and on top of the anthers are sometimes filaments (little threads) and much more often in Pink Perfection than in Kanzan, some of the filaments on top of the anthers become vexillate ("vexillate" means flag-like, so vexillate filaments are filaments (on top of the anthers) that have turned into little flags).

    Little flag-like things not on top of an anther are called something else - staminodes if they still look like they're coming out from a stamen.

    I don't see any vexillate filaments in your photos - fair enough, since the photos are of Kanzans and vexillate filaments are only rarely seen on Kanzans.

    I agree that the set 1 photos look like Ichiyo.
     
  25. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

    Thank you, Wendy! I was completely wrong. I didn't read all the postings. Actually I just skipped some postings without using Dictionary.
    Now I found Douglas wrote about phyilloid styles. They are chenged from pistel.

    I read about Kanzan in Japanese website, too. (For me it's too hard to read all the posting written in English. )
    There I found the explanation about the number of the petals of Kanzan. (Oosaka Zouheikyoku site) It says between 25 to 40.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008

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