Japanese Maple Bark Related Issues

Discussion in 'Maples' started by mjh1676, Jul 31, 2005.

  1. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Okay, I made an edit to the venom in the
    post of mine above. Should have done it
    hours ago but I was away from here for
    most of the day.

    Jim
     
  2. graftedmaplecollector

    graftedmaplecollector Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    louisiana
    I really didn't find that I was being insulting there, but whatever....I've been here two years and haven't seen much moderation of disrespectful comments.
     
  3. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    336
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    I don't expect I have anything particular to "bring to the table" other than my love of the genus. How would it be harmful to share your findings with gardeners of the same ilk?

    As for TB itself, I'd like to ask a question about which taxa are vulnerable. Are they restricted to section/series palmata/palmata? Are all the species in the series vulnerable, or just palmatum, japonicum and shirasawanum; e.g. has anyone observed TB on pseudosieboldianum, pubipalmatum... I have seen mentioned here circinatum and sieboldianum in passing. Is this frequently seen there. How about in the series sinesnia, with some similar plants. or even further abroad, in another section?

    I have most commonly heard this mentioned in relation to palmatum here, are there some forms that appear to be resistant?

    Has this issue been bruited about in the Maple Society?

    For myself, I have difficulty distinguishing TB as shown here from wind/sun scald. Both seem to burn largely along one side, weakening the bark and tree. Some of the photos seem more clearly "attacked" than others. I have no personal experience with the TB issue so I don't claim this is an important data point.

    respectfully,

    -E
     
  4. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    There are multiple species that are vulnerable, but palmatum seems to be most greatly effected. Additional species that show this condition seems to be closely related to palmatum in most cases.

    I think that initially, some lesions can look similar to sunburn and sunscald but the progression of the lesion or the way it looks as it heals or callouses over looks distinctly different.

    I am not sure who else has considered or discussed this condition or if there is any interest to research it beyond the independent efforts mentioned here.
     
  5. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Southwest France
    No problem Daniel. In fact I was under the impression that stickied threads were endorsed by the administrator.

    Michael,
    It is not a big deal for me and you know I have been supporting this forum for several years. I am comfortable with your approach describing, accurately, symptoms. However, and this is probably influenced by my training as a scientist, I get upset when claims are made without giving supporting evidence that could be independently verified by others.

    Jim, too bad. The 'community' really needs badly a book on how to successfully raise and rear Japanes maples; not just another book with nice descriptions and pictures. And we all know you are very capable of it ;o))

    Gomero
     
  6. astrodog

    astrodog Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Zone 8b, NC. USA
    mjh.
    After reading these discussions you have convinced me, & I will NEVER buy a JM sight unseen again! (totally guilty of buying on auctions).. I had no idea....Thanks to everyone's insight I hope to have a healthy collection.
     
  7. M. D. Vaden

    M. D. Vaden Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    843
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Beaverton, Oregon
    This looks like an ancient thread....


    Everybody has probably already covered every facet imaginable.

    I'm commenting on the second photo in post #9.

    That appearance of bark is something I noted when we were collecting bird perch wood, to sell perches.

    I found that the different appearance, on the ***. maple, is on the sunnier exposure of the branch, whether on a sunset side, or the top side.

    If they don't get sun in summer, they do in fall to early spring when defoliated. Every branch has a portion that gets more sun at some point in the year.

    It was consistent from tree to tree, best I could tell.

    I never really had any reason to pay attention to it, until we were making perches. Then the appearance mattered somewhat.
     
  8. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Southwest France
    Not at all, on the contrary!. Nobody has explained 'tight bark'

    Last week I was in Holland and I learned that this condition ('tight bark') has been a problem for maple growers there. I was told that research performed at Dutch Universities apparently has shown that 'tight bark' is not produced by a pathogen, it is due to environmental factors and it is different from (although it could be aggravated by) sun scald and sun scorch.
    I'd rather wait until I can get my hands on some published papers before I say anymore on this.

    Gomero
     
  9. webwolf

    webwolf Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Hi,
    TB is still a big problem between some of my maples and any new information about this decease is helpful. However I start to wonder how bad TB really is. I thought TB will definately kill my maples but so far that has not happened.New shoots even have emerged though the TB affected bark (pic) and a grafting I did 3 years ago shows no sign of TB (pic). That was on the Atrolineare. However all graftings on a bronze dissectum show signs of TB. But none of them died.
    Wolf
     

    Attached Files:

    • 1.JPG
      1.JPG
      File size:
      114.7 KB
      Views:
      330
    • 2.JPG
      2.JPG
      File size:
      144.1 KB
      Views:
      278
  10. gin-ger

    gin-ger Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Tidewater, Virginia, USA
    Okay....this thread was extremely interesting & scared me to death! Now that most of my maples have dropped their leaves & I can clearly see the stems I'm concerned about these two. The first 2 pictures are Full Moon: the last 2 are Autumn Moon.
    IS THIS TIGHT BARK??????????????
    Thanx for any insight, Ginger
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Southwest France
    Ginger,

    How do you water the maples you show in your post? and, what kind of water do you use?
    How is the underside of the affected branches?

    Gomero
     
  12. gin-ger

    gin-ger Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Tidewater, Virginia, USA
    Gomero,
    I handwater with a hose & water breaker supplied by city water. The condition goes all the way around the affected branches & seems to be working its way up & outward. I noticed it a couple years ago and thought it was merely maturing wood until I saw this thread. It has gotten worse over time & there has been some die back, though nothing major.
    Ginger
     
  13. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Southwest France
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2006
  14. Andy

    Andy Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lincolnshire UK
    Hi all

    Having woken early and for some thing to do trawled the net for some Acer related sites found yours and spent some time reading your remarks ref. bark discoloration and would like to add some comments.

    Re. the 'tight bark' syndrome I have suffered this problem on occasions (never heard it called that though) but noticed that it happens to stems which are getting the sun most of the day, look at some of the photo's posted and you will see it is on the top of the stem if horizontal or on the side facing the sun, I do not think it is the heat alone which is the cause but a combination of drought, sun on stem, heat at the roots and wrong nutrients.

    We must remember that maples are first and foremost forest trees, they live on the lower slopes of the mountains of Japan where their climate is wet during the summer and dry during winter, water will be permanently at their roots during summer as it drains down the hills so this must be reproduced with your plants BUT to keep the growing medium from getting stagnant (in container grown plants) it must be be free draining but able to retain moisture, to this end, my mix contains 40 percent composted potting bark 5-6mm (no dust) 40 percent Vermiculite (pumice if you can get it) I baulk at using Perlite as this holds on to too much water during winter, and only 20 percent peat, this way water can given as often as is required and too much cannot be applied, the plant should never be allowed to dry out, if you are out at work or going away then some form of drip irrigation must be provided, this open mix also provides the roots with oxygen, remember, the roots act in exactly the opposite way as leaves, take in oxygen and give out carbon dioxide.
    We all know what the lack of water will do to your plants, cells will collapse and struggle to recover.

    Going back to the subject of forest trees, obviously the forest floor being covered by the canopy will be cool and should your container, especially if it is black plastic, be sitting in the sun will become extremely hot, touch it sometime during summer, the roots which are then on the outside of the rootball girdling the pot will be fried, or boiled if there is sufficient water, in these circumstances the roots cannot operate and if not enough moisture is being provided by the roots to the plant then scorched leaves and scorched bark is the innevitable result, the roots MUST be kept cool, if the plant is in the ground then supply a deep mulch, bark, grass clippings etc. this will also help prevent the soil from drying, remember these are shallow rooted trees.

    My maples are treated the exact opposite during the winter and kept almost on the point of dessication, just enough moisture to keep them turgid, they are lucky if they get watered any more than three times between the end of leaf drop and late winter.
    They store a lot of fluid over the winter and should you make any major cuts during this time you will get leaking sap for days.

    I notice that some of you are using CRFs (controlled release fertilizer) pellets, DON'T, these release on temperature and if your plant is slightly stressed duing the heat of summer and they are being force fed fertilizer, more trouble, use instead organic fertiliser, this has to be broken down by bacteria before the plant can utilise it and is almost impossible to overfeed, remember also Maples are not heavy feeders, enough to keep them happy is sufficient, there is plenty of information out there on how to procure organic feed, home made or not, and do not worry about high nitrogen feeds, rather a late summer feed so the plant can store up some carbohydrates ready for next seasons growth, what you do to your plant this year is what you see next year.

    Pruning is best carried out once growth has commenced in the spring, small cuts (3mm thick) and the removal of any deadwood can be carried out once the leaves have fallen, but any thicker cuts for shaping etc. should be made when the plant is actively growing and make sure it is done just above a node (3mm or so) do not cut through the node as the twig will die back and you are inviting diseases to set up home, the node immediately behind a cut will set up it's own protective barrier against diseases.
    Most of the everyday diseases will be shrugged off by a healthy plant and given some basic care i.e. summer moisture, organic feed, cool roots and regular inspection for any dying twigs (remove immediately) your Maple will repay you with healthy, vigorous and beautiful growth.

    Andy
     
  15. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hoschton, Ga Z7
    Hi Andy,
    Welcome to the forum.
    Enjoyed your post, made me think about several things.

    I am starting to change my soil mix for my maples to a much more open soil. I also do Bonsai, so i have been working on that soil also. I just purchased some small garden stone, ~10-40mm size, plus some clay product used for oil/water absorbtion. I am going to try a mix with them, plus double the organic material that i would use in my Bonsai. For my organic, i will use ground bark and some leaf mould.

    Your comments about watering also made me think about things. I live in the southeast of the US, and we have a very dense clay soil, so getting it to do well with maples is a challenge. I find in flat areas with some shade, the maples do pretty good, but when you add slopes and full sun, the soil can become hard as the sidewalk.

    Most of mine are in pots, so just creating a good soil for them is my main goal over the next several years.

    Mike
     
  16. Andy

    Andy Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lincolnshire UK
    Hi Mike

    Thanks, I Don't know what your prevailing weather conditions are but these trees are very adaptable and can tolerate lots of varying sites including clay, ours is almost blue, I think I could make fine bone china with it.

    The thing about clay is that it is a good soil to grow in but a swine to cultivate as you will well know, it holds on to nourishments but does not drain well but then it does not dry out so quickly in summer, except for the surface that is, that can be remedied by mulching, the only way to improve clay is to continuously keep piling organic material on to it, anything you can get, compost your own green waste (not twigs) even shredded newspaper, incidentally, a trick to help prevent the soil drying after planting a new tree is to backfill over the roots with soil then spread a thick layer of newspaper and puncturing it with a fork before completing with the final layer of soil, the paper will rot eventually. Also keep adding sharp sand and grit to your clay, it will improve with time. (Dont know if you guy's call sharp sand the same as us) the next grade up from brick laying sand. I moved to this location eight years ago and planted a few of my spares in the clay as a trial and they are thriving, obviously the roots being more widely spread, thicker and longer, they can cope with some excess moisture in winter. The water is bound to run off your clay on the slope before it soaks in, have you thought about terracing it?

    Good culture can and does prevent this bark problem and i do really believe that if the tree is not vigorous and healthy that the heat of the sun will mature the bark prematurely and that is what you are seeing, green bark is a sign of juvinality and vigour (on those plants with green bark) this will change to a beautiful silvery colour with age.


    I did not understand if you were going to add the stone to your mix? it is a bit large, even so adding stone to your mix does only one thing, makes your pots harder to shift, stone does not hold water does not hold oxygen and if it is round will only fill the air gaps in your compost, it does add weight though which will help stop your pots from blowing over though, one more thing, be cautious of adding too much leaf mould especially if is not completely rotted, gently does it but stick with the organic way with your Maples, they love it.

    Now the Bonsai, here we have a completely different root system, no tap roots, only fibrous roots so here we want no organic material, some say fine bark but this makes me shudder, too much water during winter again, and it causes nothing but root rot. Have you come across a Japanese product called AKADAMA? it's an excavated clay which is dried and graded, water it and the water just pours through, magic stuff, massive oxygen and moisture retentive capability for Bonsai use, and should they want their trees to grow even quicker they add grit to make it even more open, a contradiction to what I have previously said, but here we have a completely different growing medium. it is approx 3-4mm depending on the size of your pot, even so this is seived before use, every ounce of dust must be excluded from your bonsai mix, dust will only serve to clog up your planting medium and the fine roots will rot, do you guys (and girls) use peat over there,? sorry to be so ignorant, the reason is if you do I will tell you how to prepare it for Bonsai use if nothing else is available.

    This may have strayed off the bark thing but I would like to reitterate, A healthy tree will very infrequently suffer from this problem and if, at the outset, it is given good growing conditions, it should thrive and be able to watch you relaxing with a can or two instead of you watching and worrying over your tree, remember this.........50 percent of your plant is underground and it's the most important 50 percent!!!!
    It's that bit you should be worrying about, if the roots are performing properly the top will follow!

    Andy
     
  17. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hoschton, Ga Z7
    Hey Andy,
    Your description of your clay sounds very simlar to what we have here. It can bake to a nce hard shell if not mulched and cultivated. Your are right in its ability to hold water and nutrients. It actually can pay off in some situations when our summer gets very hot and dry.

    Actually the stone i have propably is about 3-4mm, we never quite caught on to the metric thing very here, LOL. The stone is ground, not river, so it had nice sharp edges. It is a good size to create some air gaps and help divide roots for finer structures. Most of my pots are just 2- 4 yr grafts, so wieght at this point helps to balance them. As for the AKADAMA, i am trying something a little cheaper. A bonsai friend of mine suggested trying a product called 'Oil Dry', it is a fired clay also, which has good water holding ability.
    You are right in that i find the maples are quite adaptive. I am just trying to find a nice inexxpensive mix, that provides a good base to get my 1-2 year grafts to a nice healthy 5 yr. Since i have over 200 ciltivars of palmatum, and sometimes travel for weeks at a time, i need something to help them get thru my wifes watering, LOL. She doesnt quite treat them like babies like i do. She thinks they are flowers, and need just a quick dose of water.
    Yes i am leary of too much leaf mould, breaking down, and causing problems. I have a leaf blower/shredder. Basically i shred the leaves in the fall, and then dump them in a pile to start breaking down. Since they are 0.25-0.5 inch size, they break down fairly quickly. I generally try to let them site for 6months or longer.
    Basically most people around here use ground pine park as a major component, some 100%. And the trees do pretty well. But it breaks down quickly, so repotting for maximum aeration is needed. I was hoping to borrow some Bonsai techniques and get a mix that is aerated well, but doesnt break down quickly. I am thinking i will be trying
    1 part small stone
    1 part fired clay (Oil dri)
    1 part leaf mould,
    3 part ground pine bark (Natures Helper)

    I dont have any Bonsai in pots, but several i am growing out to develop trunks. But i think i will headed to having some soon, maybe this spring.

    Mike




    Mike
     
  18. Andy

    Andy Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lincolnshire UK
    Hi Mike
    200 cultivars and how many of each? you have caught the bug! seems you have the cultural methods covered, no wonder Akadama is out of the question, you can but experiment and when you find something that works for your area then stick with it.

    Have you thought about a covered area using 50% shade netting, they love it under that, then you could have them on benches and a sprinkler system, or have you already got one? I seem to be one step behind all the time.

    Keeep at it
    Andy
     
  19. BayMaples

    BayMaples Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Jose, Ca

    In response to your comment that TB is caused by environmental problems: I had a JM planted in our yard for 5+ years that was very healthy, but stayed fairly dwarfed by a large fruit tree that was directly above it which gave it nearly full shade all day. I cut the fruit tree down completely and the next spring the JM really flourished with new growth, then by mid-summer it started getting very intense sun exposure that it wasnt used to and within about about about month it got the worst peeling, flaking, and the outer bark litterly turned to an ash/dust substance that just dropped out when touched.

    I will try to find the before and after pictures that are about 1 month apart. Its a sad sight and will give any JM fan the chills


    Mr. Sheep- It seems like you have lots of information to share in these threads, but are reluctant to share it with others who havent put in the time, money and effort as yourself. I am sure I am not the first to say it, but why dont you just write a book. It gives you credit for the research, compensates your expenses; all while benefiting the whole community. If you dont have the means to get the book made, sell your info to a publisher who will produce what you would want.

    Sorry if this comment is out of place, but it seems like it would benefit everyone. I think it could be quite lucrative for you too, since there really aren't that many books on the plant, despite its popularity, beside the Vertrees books.
     
  20. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Southwest France
    From your description your maple seems to have been affected by a clear-cut case of sun scorch, not 'Tight Bark'.

    Gomero
     
  21. eq72521

    eq72521 Active Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kennebunk, ME Z5B
    Can someone tell me what the grey/black color is on the uppwe right hand side?
    I see this on a few cultivars. It does not seem to be affecting growth or causing dyeback. There are also some 'cankers' that seem unique to this cultivar.

    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  22. justdog

    justdog Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Not sure if what I have and had was tight bark. I initially assumed that it was frost crack, zone 5 and had a wierd thaw and freeze this winter in Ontario Canada. My Samanagushi in its 2nd season had severe bark split up from the base 12 inches and eventually seperated underneath the entire circumference of the tree. It died in early spring. The 2nd one planted at the same time in the opposite side of the yard is now splitting in the same manner and experienced die back of branches in the early season, other branches otherwise healthy. My inaba shidaire has a severe crack under the soil and continuing up about 7 inches, tree looks otherwise healthy and had vigourous leaf out. The water fall I have is green and shows no signs of bark split or dieback. Inaba no dieback. Inaba and watefall both 3 years old and had 3inch trunk diameters when planted. Not sure what to do???? Have a split leaf in a bonsai pot and it wintered well in a cold frame and had specatacular vigor. The curious thing about the bonsai and the reason I liked it at the nursery was the bark. It was a very sturdy hardy greyish bark running in verticle striations. It contiues to be very healthy even after large branch removal. It caluses over in the cut areas in a very healthy manner.
    It seems these maples are somewhat delicate to this climate and may be forced at the nursery to grow too rapidly??? Opinions certainly welcome. Can post pics
     
  23. mickbrownell

    mickbrownell Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    western washington state, USA
    Bark splitting has been noted to the trunk of our Kawasu gawa since early this spring but the tree has otherwise flourished. Is this a normal characteristic of this tree or sign of disease. If a sign of disease will tree wraps or systemic disease root feeding help?
     
  24. justdog

    justdog Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Something interesting and a diagnosis which could apply is the action of the climate on the upward and doward or general flow of sap. As the trees are of delicate bark structure the early thaw and unseasoonal weather early this season prompted sap flow. Unfortunately after this unseasonal early spring like weather there was a good freeze. I think this cycle happened twice. Trees I had in my cold frame were wisely left in there even though some growth started during this early thaw. My Samanagushi was not so fortunate and the bark split around the entire circumference killing the tree. I have another Sam and an Inaba shidare. The other Sam is and was splitting in quite a few places but did survive, it also had die back but not fatal. The Inaba has a real long split down below ground running up about 6 inches. I put lots of bonsai healing paste on this area several times. The inba seamed to grow inside the bark but the bark seemed not to be in sinc with the inner tree. Due to this the split opened several times but I kept treating it with bonsai paste. The tree leafed out perfect and grew vigorously. No die back. I hope it had enough repairing over the season to prevent this nasty split in the spring from killing both the sam and the inaba. I am going to burlap the taller sam this year as high as I can to protect from the North wind. Fingers crossed I hope they survive.
     
  25. mickbrownell

    mickbrownell Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    western washington state, USA
    Not sure if any of the explanations to cause of bark splitting to the trunk fit the environment in Western Washington. Rarely gets over 90 here and we had no bitter frosts either. We did have a few unseasonably warm days in early spring then it cooled again and all of our maples seemed to simply not develop until the weather turned warm again. Didn't even get any frost nip on the new growth. Is there a bacteria or fungus that can cause this splitting? Regardless of the cause would the use of bonsai paste and/or tree wrap help our Kawasu gawa?
     

Share This Page