is my sangokaku dying?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by bigjohn33, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    hi
    last fall i pruned my sangokaku because of crossing little woods. I used sterilsed tools
    During this winter, black spots appeared near the pruned woods. I fear for verticiliose
    mal.jpg
    is it verticiliose or can it be another fungus?
    mal 31.jpg
    my acers like the place i live (france near bordeaux in the wood with an acid and sany soil) so i never had any problem with verticiliose
    The tree is here since 3 years and grows without problem since this winter
    i try to check "under" the bark to see if there was still life and it is ok
    but i wounded the acer which is now bleeding!
    what can i do?
    there are 5 others maples nearby
    what should i do?
    thanks a lot for your precious advices
    and sorry for my english!
     
  2. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    big ,i see that you use ash around the trunk why? ash up the PH of soil .....you maple
    bleeding because in this period (in some zone)is wide and the lymph is in circulation
    change period of pruning ,however no problem ...
    the first question are difficult for me because (good news, black spot not is on base of trunk..) i see this spot on my acer after hot summer , acer is in life again... You read FAQ
    verticellum and relative ?is a good FAQ ,also in start page there is one good thread about bark problems.....salut alex
     
  3. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    thanks for this first answer
    i use ashes for the potassium in it
    only small amout once a year
    my soil is acid so the rise of ph is not a pb (i think so)
    i already read all ths posts on verticiliose
    and it is really difficult to know what is striking may sangokaku
    do the black splot alwways comme from the base of the trunk?
    it seems ok here
    EMERY on this forum said that he had the same pb with a sangokaku (black spots) and the acer is still in life with normal growth
    concerning the bleeding, should i stop it using a specific product or should i let it go?
    thanks again
     
  4. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    i not use specific product for bledding ..,i see in my maples that if the black spot are in base trunk
    the maple dead in two week...
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Have seen this on several maples here, the top does tend to die above the black area.
     
  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The wet lesion is caused by a bacterium
    that was already in the plant by way of
    propagation. Much easier seen in the
    Winter months but can be seen during
    the growing season when the tree has
    been stressed.

    "Have seen this on several maples here,
    the top does tend to die above the black
    area."


    This quote above is very true. Really
    hard to accept at times but if we do
    not prune out the lesion it will spread
    up the tree first and then move down
    the tree to the graft union if there is
    one. Once in the graft union the
    disease will choke off nutrient and
    water flow to the rest of the tree.

    Recommendation and it will not be
    to your liking is to prune out all of
    the top now making your pruning
    cut about 2" below the first sign of
    the black colored lesion. Make a new
    fork from both main branches about
    the same height with flat, horizontal
    cuts, then use a Copper based fungicide
    and spray the entire tree soon after you
    do the pruning. Start this tree over and
    hope for the best. Not pruning out the
    lesion will lead to this trees eventual
    demise. It can take up to a few years
    to come to fruition but steps taken now
    to prevent that occurrence can lead
    to this tree living a whole lot longer.
    The wetness emanating from the
    lesion is what a gummosis looks
    like on a Japanese Maple.

    The black colored covering over
    the pruning wounds is due to a
    secondary invading fungus and
    is not a problem to the tree.

    The tree does have Verticillium
    alboatrum
    in its system but the
    signs of the disease is not enough
    to kill the tree at the present time.
    Your main worry is the bacterium.

    Jim
     
  7. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Jim first tanks for your reply ,this Verticillium is dangerous for maples around?
     
  8. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    i am going to listen to your advice
    firts , i will remove the acer and put it away from the others
    and then i will prune it even if it kills me to do that!
    can i plant another maple in the same place?
    how can i sterilise the soil?
    tahnks again
     
  9. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    some news
    i sent some photos of the sangokaku to Guy Maillot
    http://www.maillot-erable.com/
    he is a french sepcialist of japanese maples
    for him it is not verticiliose
    It does not appear during winter and the black spots are really different
    for him it is a fungus that will probably not kill the acer. It needs care with fungicide (for him a product for roses black spot will be ok)
    he also told me that it will be a good idea to isolate it from the others maples
    i really don't know about this because it is a quite big acer
    can fungus (not verticiliose) strike the other maples?
    thanks again!
     
  10. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Bigjohn,

    You should listen to what Mr. Shep took the effort to tell you, he is right in his explanation and I fully agree with his advice on pruning. If someone else has a different explanation, this forum is probably the right place to gain credibility.

    I am more doubtful about the usefulness of fungicides taking into account the problem is of bacterial origin. However if the application is restricted to the branches without drenching the ground I have no objection to it.
    I would regard the tree, after pruning, as a living organism that has gone through a major stress (disease+ major surgery) requiring loving and tender care. That means regular watering, good mulching, healthy dose of suitable organic fertilizer (even if a soil analysis does not show any major deficiency) and addition of beneficial microoorganisms to the root zone (mycorrhizae, EM).

    If you read the Verticillium (Verticiliose in French) thread in the FAQ, you can learn that symptoms mainly appear in the summer time and much more.

    Gomero
     
  11. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    BigJohn,

    Been away from the forum for a couple of days, so I will answer here. If you want to discuss it in French you can email me again.

    I also agree with Mr. Shep, but I don't think I'd move the tree, which will stress it even further. This is similar to what my Sango kaku was suffering from, but my case was not as bad. Thankfully, because it was near the base of the trunk so that pruning was not an option. I don't think it is "catching" if you practice normal garden hygiene.

    I sprayed with fungicide but also did my best to dry out the roots (drainage always a problem here) by aerating the soil. Also a light fertilization in spring. Result is that the spot scabbed over in part, and part of the cambium died: but with healthy edges that swelled well, and trunk growth continues. I cannot say what the future will bring but for now this sango kaku is OK. Still as I say the entire ring of cambium was not effected by the condition in my case.

    As for the ash, I do not use it around maples even though I also have acid soil. My sense is that especially thick applications as you have in the photo tend to bog the soil.

    Gomero, your second sentence shows you should be a politician! ;)

    -E
     
  12. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    thanks again for the very rich answers
    have you any idea about a risk og propagation of the fungus to the nearby maples?
    that's an incredible forum here!!
    thanks again
     
  13. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    What fungus???

    Gomero
     
  14. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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    the fungus or the bacteria that kill the maple
     
  15. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I should have noted, as I did to bigjohn separately, that I used fungicide as a precaution against fungal infestation in the necrotic tissue. Not to cure the (as I deemed it) pseudomonas bacteria.

    -E
     
  16. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Many Maples of the past have been able
    to hold their own, not thrive but live for
    many years with this bacterial disease
    and Verticillium alboatrum in their
    systems. In some growing areas the
    trees do not stress enough to show one
    of both of the symptoms while both
    are residing in the plant. The bacterial
    disease in question is not Tight Bark,
    of which it coinciding along with
    Verticillium alboatrum can be a rather
    difficult growing situation to deal with
    once we see the effects of the Tight Bark.
    Verticillium alboatrum is not the quick
    decline wilt form of Verticillium and
    by itself seldom kills a Maple but in
    combination with such a debilitating
    disease to new growth as Tight Bark
    is and the resulting wood loss from
    its destruction without adequate new
    wood to replace the wood that was
    lost, then that combination of Tight
    Bark and Verticillium alboatrum has
    become the second most lethal disease
    we have in Maples. Currently, it is the
    single most destructive combination
    we have in Maples today.

    Both the bacterial form we see in this
    plant that can yield a wet lesion, whereas
    in contrast Tight Bark yields a dry lesion,
    along with the Verticillium alboatrum in
    the plants system came from propagation.
    It used to be felt by an array of people
    that the alboatrum form of Verticillium
    was passed on from plant to plant, even
    from seed, was present in some form
    in all Japanese Maples. I have only
    seen a couple of cultivars that I felt
    were relatively free of the disease,
    free enough not to show much evidence
    in the wood and later from the loss of
    growth due to dieback. So many Maples
    have this form in their systems that it
    has become second nature to some
    people not to be overly concerned
    about the disease unless we endure a
    series of plant stresses in which we
    see some wood loss that is not replaced
    in time by some new growth wood.
    The problem with Tight Bark is that
    we do not get new wood where the
    disease has attacked but can get new
    wood from below the deadened areas
    but we can also lose this new wood
    soon as well. Tight Bark is the most
    debilitating disease over time to a
    Japanese Maple that we have once
    it hits the plant. Again some growing
    areas may not see evidence of this
    disease but propagated plants of
    theirs grown on elsewhere can and
    do show the symptoms of this disease.

    I would not move the plant at all as
    the cutting of the roots would add
    undue stress to this tree. I'd leave
    this tree right where it is and hope
    that once you prune this tree back
    that you will trigger the roots to set
    out new root shoot development that
    will help sustain this tree and force
    out new growth. Some people feel
    that pruning the top will not force
    the tree to yield new root shoot
    development and sometimes it
    will not but in most cases it will
    signal the roots to set out new
    growth and in many plants this
    has been proven over and over
    over time that in most woody
    trees that new growth in the
    roots is initiated. But other
    factors can or may preclude
    or help prevent this from happening
    all of the time for woody plants
    as some do not respond well this
    way but for several Maples this
    is not the case for them.

    The form of Verticillium in this
    tree will not adversely affect
    nearby plants. The pathogen is
    not in the soil but in the trees
    system. This is not to say that
    another form of Verticillium
    is not in the soil but as of now
    it seems highly doubtful there
    is the quick decline form in the
    soil as then most likely this tree
    would already be dead. If this
    tree leafs out in the Spring after
    being stressed this bad again and
    does not perish then the likelihood
    that the quick decline form is in the
    soil or in the plant is pretty remote.

    Copper based fungicides have been
    used for years on many trees and
    shrubs for bacterial and fungal
    suppression. If some people have
    a problem using elemental Copper
    then Calcium such as a Calcium
    hydroxide form can be used instead.
    Be very careful using a Lime sulfur
    spray on any Maple during freezing
    cold or overly warm weather as this
    can and usually does lead to wood
    injury. Sulfur dust applied with or
    without a wetting agent or a sticker
    can be useful for us also.

    Fungicide drenches are seldom needed
    around here in such a warm and dry
    climate but in some areas of Oregon
    and elsewhere that are notorious for
    having soils that can harbor water mold
    fungi (the soil temperatures do not get
    warm enough to effectively kill the fungi)
    and can also experience blast forms of
    fungi in some years as well as the Spring
    and Summer blast forms of bacteria for
    some trees, then soil drenches may be
    prudent for a growing operation to
    allow for some protection to the trees
    during the growing season. We do not
    need to worry about using a soil drench
    but even coastal and inland coastal areas
    of Northern California have used soil
    drenches in the past for fungal and
    bacterial suppression and no one is
    going to tell them or advise them not
    to use them when they feel they are
    needed. Ever see what Tar spot alone
    harbored by neighboring native trees
    can do in mid Spring to a series of
    North Coast grown Maples then some
    people may want to reconsider to tell
    those growers they are being foolish
    to use fungicides. See a Sycamore
    Maple get badly disfigured in the
    Spring and set there and not do much
    for the rest of the year makes it real
    tough to sell it.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Specimen with trunks pruned out would be replacing top growth it would have made from branch tips on those trunks with basal growth it might not have made otherwise. Many trees and shrubs have dormant buds on stems that come to life when flow of hormones from roots ends farther down, where they are instead of at tip of stem that was cut off or back. The annual routine opening of the overwintering dormant buds at ends of stems is triggered by hormones sent from roots, when new roots grow in spring. In fall, setting of dormant buds at stem tips results in hormones being sent to roots which produces largest amount of elongation of existing roots for entire year. Plant is integrated system just as we are, cutting away part of it affects the remainder.
     
  18. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi all,

    Good thoughts and comments from all. Sango kaku has always been more susceptible to blight problems and yes, I have done the drastic deed and pruned a tree in half. What was left wasn't worth keeping. Do any of you use "Agrimyicin". not sure if I spelled it quite right, but it is an antibotic for maples. I do use fungicides, but sometimes with really wet and warm springs the greenhouse is a petrie dish for bacteria.

    Gomero - glad to here you are using mycorrhizae. I am totally convinced that this beneficial root bacteria is helping my maples grow faster and healthier. I have been innoculating all one gallons for two years now and not only have they grown faster, but with less fungal issues. Sam
     
  19. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Ahem!!, they are naturally-occuring soil fungi. But I agree with you on their beneficial effect on maples. Their presence also seems to keep 'bad' fungi at bay.

    Gomero
     
  20. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Gomero, do you have a brand for mycorrhizae here? I don't recall seeing them for sale in garden centers.

    Sam, when you say "innoculating" do you mean injecting with a syringe? We've seen some "juiced maples" that are inoculated, put on big growth but then tend to die back when the treatment stops.

    -E
     
  21. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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  22. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Emery and Gomero,

    I buy direct from www.mycoapply.com or www.mycorrihizae.com or
    you can email Dr. Mike at info@mycorrihizae.com

    When I say innoculate, I mean every single maple receives this beneficial fungi which then attaches to the root system and stays with the maple for life.

    Have you heard of Monrovia nursery in the US. a giant retail supplier to garden centers and nurseries; they all innoculate every plant they produce. Thanks, Sam
     
  23. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Mycorrhizae is the phenomenon of fungi and roots interacting. The fungi that do this are called mycorrhizal fungi.
     
  24. bigjohn33

    bigjohn33 Active Member

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  25. Maple_Lady

    Maple_Lady Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi BigJohn,

    I can't speak for Gomero, but here in the Northwest we have acidic soil great for maples, Rhoddies, Azaleas, blueberries etc. No problems with this beneficial fungi. I know that it doubles the root structure in one year versus a maple growing without it.
     

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