Is it Ilex? Red berries on long slender stems

Discussion in 'Outdoor Gardening in the Pacific Northwest' started by wcutler, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Yes, it's still Stranvaesia davidiana; new pic (just above) confirms.
     
  2. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Spines and all?
     
  3. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Not thorny in the way that a rose is, but IIRC it has twigs that are somewhat spine-tipped, in the same way that Prunus spinosa is. I'll try and check next time I see one, tho' don't know when that'll be as I'm avoiding going out just now to minimise covid risks.
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Look for other Stranvaesia elsewhere in your area, compare those to mystery shrub in person to finally resolve where it lies. In addition to a horticultural presence in western WA it is a weed here, popping up here and there on suburban and urban forest land in the manner of various other Old World woody plants.
     
  5. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    It's not like I recognize these things. I photographed one at UBCBG two months ago, after Douglas Justice identified it for me (in spite of Douglas's statement on Nadia's thread in 2013 that these were being removed from the garden), but I did not for one second think to associate it with the plant featured here. Nadia posted in that thread a good photo of the flowers that I should be able to compare to the ones on this plant.

    I see one possible spine in my photos from two months ago. Do you think it is? There is a red arrow pointing to what I'm looking at.
    Stranvaesia-davidiana_UBCBG_Cutler_20201106_135100-with-arrow.jpg Stranvaesia-davidiana_UBCBG_Cutler_20201106_135100-with-arrow-c.jpg
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I have just been told that the "spines" are really thorns.
     
  7. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Today I wanted to make a point about how the habit of the upper part of the plant featured here, now called Stranvaesia, looks so similar to me to a Pyracantha I saw, and when I focused in on that area on the Stranvaesia, I noticed a lot of thorns.
    not-Ilex-and-Pyracantha_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210112_142616.jpg not-Ilex-and-Pyracantha_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210112_142629.jpg

    Here is the Pyracantha that reminded me of this plant.
    Pyracantha_1131Burnaby_Cutler_20210112_154248.jpg Pyracantha_1131Burnaby_Cutler_20210112_154545.jpg
    In the last photo above, on the branch going to the left at the bottom, you can see places where the thorns have leaves. Thorns are modified branches; that they have leaves pretty much defines those things as thorns. You can see that clearly on the next photo. I am including the other two to show that it really is a Pyracantha, and to show the thorn on the branch growing tip.
    Pyracantha-thorns_1131Burnaby_Cutler_20210112_154821.jpg Pyracantha_1131Burnaby_Cutler_20210112_154623.jpg Pyracantha_1131Burnaby_Cutler_20210112_154921.jpg

    I took home some fruits from the Stranvaesia and pulled them apart. I can't say I learned anything. Stranvaesia seeds are supposed to be oblong, compressed; for Pyracantha, Pyracantha in Flora of China @ efloras.org just says they're pyrenes.
    not-Ilex-and-Pyracantha_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210112_204423.jpg not-Ilex-and-Pyracantha_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210112_204744.jpg not-Ilex-and-Pyracantha_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210112_210607.jpg
     
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    This is the first time since last January that I've seen something I thought could be Stranvaesia. There are several shrubs set back from the bike path along the Greig Rhododendron Garden azalea path. What looks similar to me are the wiggly leaves with pointed tips and entire margins, and the inflorescence structure. Also the elongated shape of the seeds. What seems different are the size of everything - the leaves, fruits, inflorescence stems, and hairs on the pedicels and peduncles, but not to the extent that I would think they were pilose or tomentose or tomentose-villous, which words are used in the descriptions of, well, all the Stranvaesia species at Stranvaesia in Flora of China @ efloras.org except S. oblanceolata. One more difference is that the first shrub I posted had longer and thinner pedicels, which also fit the S. oblanceolata description at Stranvaesia oblanceolata in Flora of China @ efloras.org. Except that oblanceolata leaves are described as "margin obscurely obtusely dentate". Well, here is one of the original photos cropped. I guess that fits this description.
    Ilex-maybe_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20201231_150653c.jpg

    Other than bracts, which are described as caducous, which means that they are shed at an early stage and which I have not seen, the other feature that distinguishes S. davidiana from the others is that it has inconspicuous lenticels on the branchlets. I think the lenticels are noticeable enough in the second-to-last photo in my first posting to fail that test.
    Nothing in Flora of China says anything about thorns, though. Here is another photo of some of those, and one showing long slender hairless pedicels, and lenticels on what I think is what is meant by branchlet.
    Stranvaesia_CarderoHaro_Cutler_20210826_151707.jpg Stranvaesia_HaroCardero_Cutler_20210827_152334.jpg Stranvaesia_HaroCardero_Cutler_20210827_152218.jpg

    So the new discovery, is this the S. davidiana? Or something else entirely? At least I didn't see any thorns.
    Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210820_153439.jpg Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210820_153328.jpg Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210820_154030.jpg

    Here is a comparison of the original plant held on the left and the new discovery in the park. The sample from the first shrub is smaller in all respects than what I posted the first time, and it's very much smaller than the new discovery, which also has duller fruits. You can see pedicel hairs on the second photo.
    Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210827_160018.jpg Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210827_160207.jpg

    Here are a seed from the first plant posted and from the one in the park.
    Stranvaesia-davidiana_HaroCardero_Cutler_20210827_195414.jpg Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210827_195534.jpg
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    The fruits are starting to ripen. These are from the Stranvaesia davidiana new discovery in the park.
    Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210915_160329.jpg Stranvaesia davidiana_StanleyPark-RhodyGardenBikePath_Cutler_20210915_160419.jpg
     

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