For citrus being grown exclusively indoors, does it make any significant difference in choosing cutting-grown plants over ones that are grafted onto a rootstock? Assuming the starting plant stock is pest- and disease-free, under such conditions the rootstock seem to matter much less: Cold hardiness is not an issue; tree size is naturally restricted by the container; pests and diseases do not pose nearly the same degree of problem due to the controlled environment and the use of sterilized growing medium; ability to tolerate poor drainage is not a factor if plants are properly irrigated; tree vigor may be improved in some cases. Overall, the lack of a rootstock does not appear to be a disadvantage when growing citrus strictly indoors. Is this a correct conclusion?
In a more perfect world I would choose a cutting grown Citrus to grow on whether I am to grow it outdoors in the ground or in a container or grown indoors in a greenhouse or in my home. I think I've laid out some of the foundation of the benefits of cutting grown Japanese, Full Moon and Japonicum Maples in the Maple forum and another online Maple forum. I can also include other Maples, Magnolias, Dogwoods, Michelias and some Conifers also in the cutting grown versus grafting discussion fray as well. So much of the "other" sides arguments are based on how they learned to propagate plants and their lack of an understanding of these plants to know the benefits of both forms of propagation. One form to me does have a longer term viability prospect more so than the other at this time. Without going into the merits of cutting grown Citrus in this post I will say that many propagator/growers are not doing cuttings now as it is more efficient and less time consuming for them to bud or graft their plants. Overall, the lack of a rootstock does not appear to be a disadvantage when growing citrus strictly indoors. Is this a correct conclusion? I'd also add in when grown outdoors as well. In the mindset of the majority of people no, this is a not a correct conclusion as many people have never grown a cutting grown Citrus to know how it will match up against a budded or a grafted Citrus to compare it or them to for the long term. For the short term the cutting grown Citrus will take a backseat due to the time element difference to get a plant up and growing. The main issue is that we cannot adequately predict how large a tree will be grown from cuttings. Even my Meyer Lemon which is a semi dwarf, sold to us a dwarf, is not that much smaller in size than a standard Meyer Lemon is or will be grown at this location. If a person wants a smaller sized tree than a standard then they will want to purchase a budded or grafted tree so the dwarfing rootstock will aid in the size reduction of the tree. For outdoor growing the selected cold hardy rootstock will generally give the tree an added hedge against the cold than a plant grown on its own roots as a seedling or from a cutting will have. For indoor growing only, then not having a rootstock will not be a detriment to the Citrus. This thinking can be thought of as being close to being a correct conclusion as the area of consternation will come from people that have not done it. Even online information will come from people that have not grown Citrus indoors to know if the form grown will do better on its own roots or on a rootstock. I will write this though that from what I've seen a Kaffir Lime will do better grown indoors and on its own roots rather than being budded or grafted at this time. Not going to go into further detail with this subject just yet as I can predict the next round of questions to come about. Let me write this and be done with it for a while. We lose some of the fragrance of the plant and the intensity of the aroma of the leaves when this tree is budded or grafted as opposed to being on its own roots. I never wrote that I had not been around this plant, all I did state in a previous thread is that I have not grown it - yet. Jim
So this turns out to be a topic for debate. I hope others will jump in with their thoughts. I'm about to find out how well cuttings will grow as many have rooted. It's less than scientific but at least they can be compared with their mother plants. I have not yet been able to root a Kaffir lime; it appears to be more difficult to root than other limes. It's a good thing the seedlings haven't been thrown out.
Jim -- Until not long ago, I produced citrus trees in containers, specifically for interiorscapes and patios. I would have to disagree about the time consumption involved in grafting, versus a rooted cutting. A grafted tree involves a two-step growing schedule: the rootstock followed by the grafted plant. Growing out rootstock takes a minimum of one year. Once the tree is grafted, it can take a year longer before you have a 'saleable' product. Rooted cuttings, on the other hand, can be viable for sale within a few months. One of the 'old timers' in the U.S., when teaching me some grafting techniques several years ago, told me that a citrus tree on its own roots is always better. I don't know exactly what he meant, because a grafted tree has a better appearance, can have improved disease resistance and added hardiness. The main advantage to the rooted cutting is compatibility issues -- there are none. The best known exception to that rule is the Fortunella species (Kumquat) which don't typically do well on their own roots. As well, the list of compatible rootstocks for Kumquat is limited. I have rooted just about every type of Citrus imaginable. Some seem easier than others. For example, the one that gives me the most trouble is the Calamondin (C. mitis), yet it is commonly used as a 'teaching' aid because of the ease of rooting it. About six months ago, I rooted 196 Kaffir Lime (C. hystrix) cuttings for a nursery in the northeast. Of those two 98-cone trays, about 10 did not survive. I've seen 6' Kaffir Lime trees (started from cuttings) that were containerized in 8-10 gallon pots. So there seems to be no major limit when it comes to size. Finally, I would like to point out that there really is no such thing as a "true dwarf" rootstock. Some grow more slowly than others. Some even grow a few feet shorter. But, ultimately, most will outgrow your containers if given enough time. At my home, I have an Improved Meyer Lemon grafted to Poncirus trifoliate (aka trifoliate orange). The trunk caliper is approaching 2.5 inches, or more. This tree is perhaps 5-6 years old and container grown from the time I planted the rootstock seed. A
Until not long ago, I produced citrus trees in containers, specifically for interiorscapes and patios. I would have to disagree about the time consumption involved in grafting, versus a rooted cutting. A grafted tree involves a two-step growing schedule: the rootstock followed by the grafted plant. Growing out rootstock takes a minimum of one year. Once the tree is grafted, it can take a year longer before you have a 'saleable' product. Rooted cuttings, on the other hand, can be viable for sale within a few months. We are a ways apart in saleable sizes of Citrus. The people I know in Citrus do not sell liners. The smallest size they will sell are the equivalent of five gallons. Rooted cuttings as young as you suggest are going to someone that wants to grow them on and has plenty of time to watch them develop. All things being equal the rooted cuttings will take longer to become of saleable size out here than a budded or grafted Citrus will. Which plant will be able to be planted in the ground sooner than the other? The grafted plant will be. Starting from scratch it may take two years for a grafted plant to become saleable where you are but even then they are way too young to be sold in a nursery out here. There is one grower nursery in Southern California that may sell them that age, that small, to an East Coast nursery but those plants would not be sold in bona fide retail nurseries out here for any reason. I know of no one that sells 2 year old wholesale Citrus out here, for the purpose of those plants being sold for retail. There may be a grower somewhere that may contract out to a liner grower to have some liners come in but they are looking at no less than 2-3 years of babying those trees before they can be sold in retail nurseries or mass merchandizer retail market outlets here. Selling two year old Citrus or younger is an area I am completely unfamiliar with. One of the 'old timers' in the U.S., when teaching me some grafting techniques several years ago, told me that a citrus tree on its own roots is always better. I don't know exactly what he meant, because a grafted tree has a better appearance, can have improved disease resistance and added hardiness. The main advantage to the rooted cutting is compatibility issues -- there are none. The best known exception to that rule is the Fortunella species (Kumquat) which don't typically do well on their own roots. As well, the list of compatible rootstocks for Kumquat is limited. I agree with the sentiment that a Citrus on its own roots will be a better plant for the long term but that depends on where the plant will be growing. Outdoors in a cool environ the hardiness of the rootstock may help suppress cold damage that may otherwise occur to a Citrus on its own roots grown in cooler regions. If climate is not an issue the cutting grown Citrus will generally live longer than a grafted plant will. I am not arguing that grafted and budded Citrus have some distinct advantages over trees on their own roots. A lot depends on what we want from the trees themselves, where they are to be grown and I guess in your case how young they will be when they are sold and who will purchase such a young tree. I am much more used to the nursery and production end of things. For a Citrus orchard planting no one out here is going to plant two year old Citrus. Most likely they are going to be 4 and 5 year olds at the youngest. In most cases new plantings are going to be around be seven to eight year olds as our Washington Navels were back in 1966. The Blood Oranges we planted in 1987 were 12 year olds when we planted them. There are some dwarfing rootstock. I do not believe I wrote of dwarf rootstock but there is a well known, worldwide known I might add, container grower that touts their rootstock as being "True Dwarf". It is not the scion that is causing these plants to grow 6' and 7' tall when the standards the same age can be 15-18 feet tall. The dwarfing of the tree is originating from the rootstock. Jim
Jim -- Nice reply. Thanks. Actually, you did mention something about how your Meyer Lemon is a semi dwarf, sold to you as a dwarf, but it's almost the same size as a standard. Interestingly, there is more than one reputable California nursery that sells two-year-old trees, including the same one that touts "true dwarf" rootstock. And, once again, they can nickname it what they will, but there really is no such thing. Take care.
There may be more than one wholesale grower selling 2 year old plants but my question is who are they selling the plants to? I do not believe things have changed that much so that these juvenile plants are grown here, sold here, grown on here to be sold here later when of saleable size. I am not saying this is not happening but I am saying that this is a rather new event out here. The one nursery inferred is a nursery that I have known for quite a long while and there seems to be a change in their philosophy if they are selling these plants that young. They are shooting themselves in the foot if that is the case. I can still say that these plants are not going to retail nurseries to be sold here where I am. There may have been some shenanigans going on in Los Angeles and other nearby areas that I cannot account for but for many years it was not standard practice to sell Citrus less than 4 years old to any retail nursery. Even in our nursery we sold some plants at the nursery retail, never sold them wholesale from plants that came in from Japan and we waited until they were 5-6 years of age to let them go then. Offer them any younger and no one would buy them, aside from select bonsai enthusiasts that came into the nursery to buy some of our Hokkaido Elms and Maples. There is a nursery now near Los Angeles that is selling tubes online but they are looking for fast money. No one knows how their plants will hold up over time but these will not be production trees out here. I look at it as being a quick kill, bud the plants young, sell them ASAP and get out when the market becomes saturated with young Citrus and go back to growing plants that they know. There was talk 15 years ago that this kind of thing would happen as a counter when ideas of propagating by tissue culture was being bantered about more and more by some wholesale nurseries. Yes, our Meyer Lemon was sold to us in the early 60's as a dwarf. We could fool people if we had continued to grow that plant on as a container plant. Instead, we put it in the ground at two locations and it is a semi dwarf rather than a dwarf or a standard. I used to monitor Citrus at the experimental station where that clone had been initially worked on. At one time there was some work done on sports to slow down the growth rate of Citrus but the quality of the fruit was always an issue. I am not arguing that there may not be a true dwarf rootstock yet but dwarfing rootstock has been around a while now. There is going to be some people that may want to know how you got the Kaffir Lime to root. You do know there is more than one clone for the Kaffir Lime. I'd like to know which clone you worked on. If you know something I don't about what some of the growing nurseries are doing out here now go for it and let me know, I'll appreciate knowing. Jim
Jim -- Thanks for your informative reply. You have an intriguing set of experiences, and I would love to know more. At the risk of slandering a nursery, I'll drop you an email about some of my own purchases from California growers. I should qualify it though. My interest surrounds container-grown stock, not stock intended for fruit producers. On the subject of Kaffir Lime (C. hystrix), I can tell you that it was VI 463, obtained through UC Riverside's CCPP a few years ago and grafted to P. trifoliate. Last year, I grafted onto Braz. Sour and experienced about 20% more growth in year one -- a different story altogther. I rooted the cuttings in Steuwe & Sons model D40 (deep pot-- the yellow UV resistant version), using Metro Mix 360. I used no rooting hormones and used a one-half strength mix of 10-50-10 (water soluble) once the majority of cuttings became anchored by roots, about 2-3 weeks after cutting. They were cultured in a greenhouse (55% shadecloth), with average daily high temperatures of 99F and overnight lows of about 80F. They were watered daily by hand, and overhead misted twice daily (at approx. 1pm & 5pm) in five minute cycles. I hope this is what you wanted to know. Otherwise, please forgive my ramblings.
You are doing just fine. This kind of dialogue stirs up interest among people. You have me at a disadvantage though as we did not try to root Citrus cuttings, we mainly grafted and budded some instead. I'll try to absorb the technical info a little later. Thanks for providing some insight on the rooting process. Jim
I really do not at present know of commerical nurseries selling rooted cuttings. However, there are a lot of nurseries, many in Florida and California, selling one year old grafted trees in 4X4X14 inch "tall ones" containers. These are nurseries that grow mainly for the commerical grower, but are now also selling individual trees inexpensively to the retail market wich will mostly be grown in containers. However, here in Denver, all the retail nurseries and garden centers still sell mature citrus trees, many with fruit, in 5-gallon containers for around $40 to $50 dollars each.- Millet
There is an online nursery in a NE state that sells rooted citrus cuttings in 2.5" and 4" pots. Going by the small pot sizes I would assume their plants are young and targeted towards the indoor hobbyist. Monrovia produces many plants in 1-gal pots. The trunk diameter of these plants is around 1/2". Approximately how old would these plants be?
That nursery in the northeast could be the one I contracted with for Kaffir Lime cuttings. But, to find a retail nursery selling rooted cuttings, go no further than Lowe's or Home Depot. Although they sell some grafted specimens, the majority of their citrus stock is rooted. Their citrus comes from the largest horticultural (wholesale green goods) company in the U.S., Hines Horticultural. Recordbuck Farms (FL) is another wholesale outfit that does primarily rooted citrus cuttings. If you've ever seen their operation, they produce gallon plants like there's no tommorrow.
I have an orange and a grapefruit that I purchased from a Home Depot in Phoenix, AZ and both are grafted trees. Local Home Depots and Lowes, of course, do not offer citrus as this is Colorado. Junglekeeper, you surely must be correct about citrus trees that are grown from rooted cuttings being marketed to the indoor hobbyist market. Why would a commerical grower purchase anything other than grafted trees. The rootstock of grafted trees can be matched to the soil type, rainfall, general climate and other local conditions to obtain optimum success for the grower. I have never seen a citrus tree being offered in a 2.5" pot. Why would anyone buy one? One year old grafted trees are only about $15.00 to $20.00 dollars. - Millet
Let's keep in mind that what you guys may see available in your states are probably not going to be seen in the retail stores out here. Yes, there is a grower, two that I know of, selling rooted cuttings to a couple of the mass merchandizer retail markets out here but those trees are certainly not 2 year olds. Our world for Citrus in retail nurseries is just a little different than elsewhere. Also, it is common to see Citrus from three different growers, sometimes four in a Home Depot and a Lowe's here and even then the youngest trees for sale are 4 year olds. Less than 4 year olds have come into a Lowe’s near me (there are 3 stores near me) a while back and they just sat there. No one bought them, even at giveaway prices, as the trees just did not look good at all compared to the other trees available so the store’s “let’s see if this will fly” experiment was a bust for those trees but the potted five gallons from other growers just flew out the door. A rather smart marketing ploy is what I thought at the time. Retail stores in other areas may very well have some 2 or 3 year olds that can be purchased but out here that will not be the case. Also, Citrus from Florida growers will not be available for sale per say in a retail store out here. There is nothing to prevent a wholesale nursery from buying some Florida stock and later selling it to retail stores but those trees are generally meant for other states markets and are not offered for sale here at all. I will say this though that there is a wholesale nursery that is not growing their own Citrus that can and has offered some of these plants in large sizes, mostly in 15 gallons to a few of the mass merchandizer outlets every now and then but these trees are not seen in a full service retail nursery here unless they have been special ordered in advance by a few customers. Minimum order for those trees to come into a full service retail nursery are five of a kind (in other words 5 Meyer Lemons or 5 Valencias and no mix and match orders) to an order. There is no real need for a retail nursery to order them otherwise, as so few customers will want that large a tree for a landscape or a home planting. I am mostly referring to large patio trees, not so much standard trees but they also can be special ordered in as well. Jim
I apparently caused some confusion with Millet, and I am sorry about that. It is true that no commercial citrus producer would have an interest in rooted cuttings. If there are, I've never heard of them. -- I'm speaking mainly of the retail market, of which I'm quite familiar with. Personally, I would take a grafted tree any day of the week. Granted, I do have more than a few rooted cuttings in my collection -- such as the Etrog, which is not Kosher if it is grafted. I lived in the Northeast for a spell and I remember seeing 5' (grafted) trees at a Home Depot. To this day, I consider that lot of trees to be among the most beuatiful retail offerings that I've seen. And, if I remember correctly, they had them priced at $19.95-- most definitely a bargain. Even though the market is changing, as hobbyists are becoming more educated, there are rooted cuttings galore out there being propagated by the 'big guys' and sold at some major nurseries. The average size tree for mail order retail nurseries is more like 36"-48" in height, with a 1/2" trunk caliper. Some nurseries (mostly newcomers) sell larger specimens, but the established nurseries have remained rather constant in the sizes they ship. Once again, I'm referring to grafted specimens.
I have both grafted trees and trees from rooted cuttings. As an indoor (winter) and outdoor (summer) grower I see no difference between the two as of yet. Here on the east cost, our Lowes offers only rooted cuttings. If you ask for citrus trees in Home Depot they look at you like you have two heads.
I have both grafted trees and trees from rooted cuttings. As an indoor (winter) and outdoor (summer) grower I see no difference between the two as of yet. ...And you may not, depending on the rootstock used and/or the rooted variety. Take care. AAE -- alive and grafting
