I'd like to share my tree...

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Tina, Sep 2, 2004.

  1. Tina

    Tina Member

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    Hi everyone,
    I'm a newbie to this site - and gardening - but I'm eager to learn as much as I can. We bought a 100 year old house in Phoenixville, PA last month, with mature trees and gardens. It's my first bit of earth, and I'm fascinated, in wonder and awe of the plants growing here. In particular, there is a beautiful Japanese Maple that I was told is probably as old as the house (is that possible?) that I feel a great responsibility for nurturing. I'm trying to identify it, and get advice for taking care of it. Its leaves are green now, but when we first saw the tree in May, they were red. I estimate it's height at 15ft. I'm posting a couple of pictures that I took today, and one from the inspection in May.
    Thank you for your help, and I look forward to learning from all of you!
    Tina
     

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  2. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Tina-

    You have a beautiful and appearingly very healthy specimen.

    You said it was red in may? Some green dissectums will leaf out red/pink for a few weeks and then take on the full green color. Was the red prolonged or short-lived and more pink? Is the large bronze-colored tree in picture 3 the same as in picture 1 and 2? If so, where is the light green foliage on the tree? And were all 3 pictures taken at the same time?

    I don't think your tree will need any special care, as whatever the current culture, it looks great. Normal care and appropriate light spring and fall fertilization should keep it going strong.

    Michael
     
  3. Tina

    Tina Member

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    Thank you for your help! Unfortunately, we moved into the house in early August, and only viewed the tree once briefly before then (in May). My memory of exact color from that viewing is vague (I seem to remember red). All of the pictures are of the same tree. Picture 3 was taken in May during our house tour/inspection, and pictures 1 and 2 were taken yesterday afternoon. The attachments on this message are the same tree, taken this morning. Thanks again!
    Tina
     

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  4. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Your dissectum

    Your location, Phoenixville, Pa. is only about 35 Miles from the famous Red Maple Nursery in Media, PA.. That nursery was the late Richard P. Wolff's nursery. He is renowned for the introduction of such great Japanese Maples as 'Emperor I', 'Moonfire' and 'Green Mist'. Another cultivar that has a link to Red Maple Nursery is 'Edgewood's Golden'. It is a dissectum that is an orange/red in spring and again in fall. It is a green dissectum but I don't believe that it's color in mid-summer is as light a green as yours shows. 'Green Mist' is an orange/red in fall so I am assuming that it's new growth in spring is also an orange/red. You may have one of Richard P. Wolff's maples.
     
  5. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Tina:

    Let me see what this Maple looks like in the Fall
    and I'll identify it for you. I already am 90% sure
    I know this Maple but I want to be certain based on
    the Fall color. You will want to provide some pics
    for this forum for us to see a little later in the year.

    Elmore: There was another nursery in Pennsylvania
    that had a "pipeline" to recent introductions from
    Oregon. More specifically Fred Bergman at Raraflora.
    Personally, I do not believe this Maple is a Red Maple
    Nursery introduction as I know it as an introduction
    from a series of three seedling selections, all having
    their origins from a nursery in Canby, Oregon.

    Mr. Vertrees did cite one of the three forms in his
    2nd Edition book. All three have the same basic
    growth pattern but the incised cutting of the leaves
    and the coloring of the leaves during the growing
    season is what sets them apart from each other.
    "Edgewood's Golden" is a subject we can discuss
    at another time and perhaps another place.

    The rust red coloring (not a bronze red, nor an orange
    red) in the Spring and then the light green leaves during
    the Summer makes this one quite unusual for people
    that have not ever seen one and yes, in 30 years this
    Maple in the right setting can be this large. I will have
    to see what the Fall color looks like before I can commit
    to it.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2004
  6. Tina

    Tina Member

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    This is very exciting! I'll be sure to post more pictures with fall color. Thank you everyone!
     
  7. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Pipeline

    "There was another nursery in Pennsylvania
    that had a "pipeline" to recent introductions from
    Oregon."

    Jim, I am sure that Richard P. Wolff was involved with growers on the west coast, his interactions with Vertrees are legendary, but I was referring to his introductions. The trees that he selected at Red Maple Nursery in PA.
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Richard Wolff raised a lot of seedlings hoping to come
    up with new and better colored reds. Yes, Emperor I is
    one of his and so was Red Emperor. I knew about them
    from Don and Toichi Domoto before they were ever even
    named. Moonfire may have come from Richard Bush in
    Oregon, at least I was told that years ago when Moonfire
    first came into Don’s nursery. We were told that any of
    the green Maples that Red Maple Nursery had were used
    for grafting or any greens with promise were to go to J.D.
    Vertrees. I believe the word that was used for Green Mist
    was that it was “discovered†by Richard Wolff, which can
    translate to not necessarily originating from him or from
    his nursery. Several plants that were registered through
    the RHS were invariably originally discovered in Japan,
    yet later named in Europe.

    Personally, I cannot say for certain where or how some
    people got some of their Maples on the East Coast but I
    do know what more than one source including Mr. Vertrees
    has told me about specific people and how they got some
    of their original plants. Maple origins have to be taken
    with a grain salt anyway as the person that named the
    Maple may not have been the person that originally grew
    the Maple.

    By the way, Beni shidare variegated was given to Mr.
    Vertrees by Don and Pauline Croxton whose nursery
    name was Maple Wood Nursery. Notice the similarity
    of two nursery spellings as it was important at one time
    as there were some Maples that J.D. got from Don and
    Pauline that were attributed by others as originating
    from J.D. at Maplewood nursery instead.

    We all have assumed that Mr. Vertrees traveled to
    Japan and other countries bringing back with him
    Maples for him to grow and to evaluate. In one
    of my threads that I started the reason why this
    did not happen was given. Mr. Vertrees did not
    have clearance to bring in Maples from various
    Pacific Rim (Asian) countries into Oregon without
    those plants being held under quarantine at the
    Chico Experimental Station for no less than 6
    months. The only alternatives were to bootleg in
    the plants from another country, bring in plants
    from East of the Rockies that did not have the
    same restrictions as we had with Pacific Rim
    plants or bring in seeds of the plants to later try
    to germinate.

    There were plants being shuffled to and from the
    East Coast and the West Coast with regularity
    throughout starting in the 60’s. Various Pines
    and other Conifers may have come into here and
    several Maples went out from here in return. To
    say that this person or that person on the East
    Coast developed a particular Maple has always
    been seen by some people on the West Coast as
    being suspicious. Right or wrong that is how it
    was and for me personally it is why I hold the
    European Maples enthusiasts under the same
    proverbial microscope as with several of their
    Maples I just do not believe them yet about
    their origins. It becomes my problem and
    not theirs but I know what has gone on with
    various Conifers in the past and I have good
    reason to be suspicious of the Europeans.
    That is why I would want to know where
    their forms of Japanese Maples originated
    from but I may be the only person to want to
    know that information. I am sure some of
    them feel that same in that our Maple origins
    here are suspicious to them as well and I surely
    cannot fault them at all for feeling that way.
    Our hedge against the so-called derision of the
    two sides of the “great pond†is having an idea
    as to what has gone on in Japan and when we’ve
    asked we had access to a few people that would
    tell us what they knew about certain Maples of
    theirs.

    What is all of this leading up to? Okay, Tina,
    I’ve seen you looking into the UBC forums
    and I have to believe that you are wanting
    someone to tell you what your Maple is. The
    dilemma is that I may be the only person that
    has a “bead†on this one because I know the
    history of this Maple. I know where it originated
    and who originally grew the Maple. I have a
    sister seedling of it and I also have this Maple.
    If someone were to guess what it is and can tell
    why it is what they are calling it, I’ll be glad to
    confirm it for them and for you but I feel the
    need for me to see more proof based on what
    I know of your Maple. The conclusive proof
    for me now will be to see the what the Maple
    looks like in the Fall.


    Why is the proof important? A perfect case in
    point is a Maple that someone from New York
    posted wanting to know what it is. Various people
    have written about that Maple cultivar in this
    forum. One person in particular has shown pictures
    of his Maple in the Maple Photo Gallery. Now,
    here is someone else’s Maple and no one seemingly
    can tell him what his Maple is. I cautioned people
    that that kind of thing would happen. No one in this
    forum believed me but my knowing that kind of stuff
    comes from my own experience of knowing what I
    went through years ago when I would learn to know
    our Maples here and then see them elsewhere and
    wondered what I was seeing. Crimson Queen here
    looks different than a Crimson Queen does in Oregon.
    A Moonfire here looks different during the growing
    season than a Moonfire will grown in Virginia. A
    Butterfly grown here may look entirely different than
    a Butterfly will grown in England. Why is it that Red
    Dragon grown in New Zealand does not have the same
    coloration as we get and our plants originally came in
    from New Zealand?

    People will not comprehend that kind of stuff until
    they see things for themselves. All I’ve done is
    act like the parent that tells junior what not to
    do knowing he will do it anyway. Yet, 10 years
    later he is cautioning someone else what I warned
    him about. It takes time for the siblings to realize
    what you were trying to tell them and why but in
    futility it goes in one ear and out the other until
    they realize first hand why you had told them what
    you did.

    Jim
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Before I flew home I tried to correct some silly
    errors but I was not able to edit from my end..

    Brad, what I wrote has nothing to do with you.
    I've heard two conflicting reports on Moonfire
    and to be honest I do not know who did originate
    that Maple. I have no way of finding out for sure
    now as sadly none of the parties are still amongst
    us.

    I can still be wrong about this Maple and I think
    for me to involve myself in any Maple ID's (I'll
    be quite frank that I went against my own better
    judgement getting involved in this thread) that I
    will have to have the proof I am looking for whether
    it is Michael's, Layne's or Tina's Maples. Sometimes
    we have to wait and see these Maples at various
    times during the year to have a better idea what
    they are or might be.

    Other than that I have nothing more to write in
    this particular thread. Write what you' want as
    I probably will not reply to anything until I know
    more about the Fall colors of this Maple. I
    crossed the line for me in giving away too much
    info again. Info that few if any others know much
    of anything about. I do not know why it is that I
    feel agitated every time I do that with Maples.
    Conifers, Fruit Trees, other trees, no problem
    but Maples - yep, big time problem for me. Part
    of the reason is because I do not like writing
    about people that cannot defend themselves and
    the only way to stop it from happening is for me
    to stop doing it. Enough said I think.

    Jim
     
  10. Tina

    Tina Member

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    fall color

    Here are some pictures taken of my tree yesterday morning (11/1/04). Such a lovely tree, it's captured my heart.
     

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  11. Magnificent

    Tina, your bush is magnificent. Keep us posted. What do the stems look like? Closeup?
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Apart from the fact that there are a great many closely similar cultivars of Japanese garden plants, including weeping laceleaf Japanese maples such as yours, there is also the possibility that your specimen is an unnamed seedling, sold and planted without having been given its own name. So, even if you learn of a plant that seems the same it may not, in fact, be exactly the same cultivar. Without some kind of confirming, written documentation I would be quite wary of afixing a varietal name to it and telling others that's what it is.
     
  13. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

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    Incredible
     
  14. Tina

    Tina Member

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    more pictures

    Thank you everyone! I hope I'm not being a bore. I'm having such fun!
     

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  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Tina:

    We never got to see the richness of Fall color like this
    on ours but I do know this Maple. From what I can see
    in all of the pictures, I am real pleased to say this one,
    to me, as of today looks...

    Otto's dissectum.

    This one originated as a seedling selection in Canby,
    Oregon, back in the mid to late 60's. This Maple is
    not standard in the nursery trade. Only 3 West Coast
    nurseries that I know of ever had it. Don considered
    the earliest Spring color an apricot orange turning to
    a copper in early Summer and then to a light green
    throughout Summer. The Fall colors are a glowing
    orange with golden yellow undertones with a few
    splashes of crimson in the shaded areas, a strong
    orange tinged light red in the sunnier areas of the
    Maple. I can be more certain your Maple is Otto's
    when I see the initial color in the Spring. About a
    month later you will see the darker rust red instead
    but the rust red is even throughout the Maple for
    about 2 weeks. Then green undertones will be seen
    but the newest growth until Summer will be the
    copper (light green tinged with the apricot orange)
    just like ours are.

    Do not let too many nurserymen know what you have
    or they will want wood from this tree. I suggest you
    keep the wood "vultures" away from it if you want to
    keep the very nice shape of this tree intact.

    Your photos are truly excellent. Thank you so much
    for showing us your great Maple.

    Jim


    Ron:

    You are quite correct in your assessment of names.
    There were two other unnamed seedlings similar to
    Otto's that came to Don unnamed as well as Red
    Head from the Canby nursery. Don did not name
    the two similar seedlings either. The difference
    aside from the leaf shapes is the Spring color in
    that only Otto's of the three will turn the apricot
    orange at first then later turn a brilliant rust red.
    Some of the newer growth on the two other
    seedlings in the Spring will have some rust red
    touches on some of the newest leaves turning to
    a bronze red but they fade out rather fast with any
    warmth or direct afternoon sun, whereas the heat
    and sun does not affect the series of Spring colors
    of Otto's. I have to remind myself that is what was
    true for us but may not be true grown elsewhere.
    We never sold the other seedlings but they may
    have been outlet to other Oregon nurseries at one
    time or another, probably much more recently than
    at any particular time. The originating nursery is
    now (within the last 3 years) under new ownership.
    I cannot be sure about whether any of the 3 Maples
    were sold or given to a few others in Oregon or not
    but I believe they were not outlet to any other West
    Coast nurseries other than Don Kleim's nursery for
    a number of years. Otto's dissectum is known to
    have been introduced into one Pennsylvania nursery
    in particular as early as 1974 from what Don told me
    years ago.
     
  16. douglas

    douglas Active Member 10 Years

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    Tina
    tis truly a special tree.

    Thanks for sharing, Where I am I'ld live in a tent to have a tree like that out front:)

    regards doug
     
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Since it's producing seeds there is some possibility of growing seedlings to give to friends (growing a large number might result in a small number of laceleaf offspring). Otherwise, they can probably content themselves with buying other clones of weeping laceleaf Japanese maple at nurseries, as the same exact combination of attributes may not be required. Japanese maples are very popular, fully stocked nurseries will have many to choose from.
     
  18. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Tina .... can I be your friend ? LOLOL
    Tina ... that is one stunning tree .... you are a lucky girl to have such a mature healthy specimin in your garden
    Personally I believe that it is very difficult to name a Japanese Maple, as their colour and form depend so much on their location (sun/shade, warmer/cooler climate, soil conditions etc etc). For that reason I enjoy the opinions given by our most informative participants to this forum, and this thread in particular. It matters not whether they are right or wrong .... more important that they are giving an informed opinion that deserves considered thought
    Mt Shep seems convinced, and he appears to be a man of great experience and knowledge on the subject. For that reason, and the fact that I have no reason at all to disbelieve him, I think you have probably the best opinion on the name of your tree that it is possible to get
    That said (and I know it is nice to have a name for the tree) the beauty of the beast is more important in the long run
    Enjoy your special acquisition
     
  19. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Sam:

    I still want to see this Maple in the early Spring
    and then see the rust red coloring develop a little
    later. If I do not see what I think I will, then I'll
    shake my head some and then ask myself okay,
    what is this Maple then? We wanted to see a
    Maple for two years at various stages during the
    growing season before we would commit to a
    name, if there was one. Our views on what we
    see today and are confident of the plant being
    can dramatically change soon thereafter. Let
    me see one thing that is not right for Otto's and
    I'll be sure to inform everyone of it.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  20. Tina

    Tina Member

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    Thank you!

    Thank you everyone (and especially you, Mr Shep!) for your information, excitement and enthusiasm regarding this Maple. I thought it was a special tree the moment I saw it. I'm starting to know my neighbors on the street a little better, and I think I shall start asking them if they remember anything about this property, or the owners from back then. It would be fascinating to see if I could dig up pictures of the tree in its youth!

    The previous owner of the house (she lived here for 10 years...) left a note for us that said to trim the dead branches from the underside of the tree in the fall. Is this a good idea? Is it something my husband and I could do, or should we call a professional?

    I have another large Maple in the backyard that I'd like to post pictures of in the next week or two. I hope to utilize the information and links provided here in this forum to figure out what the tree is, and dazzle you all with my resourcefulness. If I can't figure it out, I am counting on the kindness of my new friends here to help me figure out what it is and how to care for it :-)

    Kind regards,
    Tina
     
  21. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Dead twigs can be snapped off by hand, those not dead enough to snap can be left in place until they are.
     
  22. wasabi

    wasabi Member

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    trimming your JM

    Tina,

    Your tree is absolutely magnificent!

    If I drive up to PA to help you trim your tree, can I haul off all the litter?... LOL

    Sabi
     
  23. Tina

    Tina Member

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    Hello Everyone!
    Here are new pictures, taken April 17, 2005, April 21, 2005, and June 21, 2005.
     

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  24. Keeb's

    Keeb's Active Member

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    Tina,

    You should be so proud of your Maple, it truely is a fantastic specimin and the coloration is magnificent. Good luck on your quest to locate earlier pictures of the tree. I look forward to seeing pictures of the maple from your back yard. : )
     
  25. Liz

    Liz Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Did Tina ever find out the name of the stunning maple tree. Makes my old tree (50 +yrs) by the front gate look drab by comparison.

    Liz
     

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