How worried do I need to be?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by maplesandpaws, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Discovered this on the trunk of my 5g Matthew while moving it (cold front coming through today and tomorrow) into the garage. It's about 1.5"x1.5" and right at the graft union. I'm hoping that it's just some surface frostbite finally showing up, but I'm worried it's something worse. All my maples were sprayed with phyton 27 (copper-based bactericide/fungicide) 10 days ago, and will be treated again this weekend, once things are back outside.

    Is there anything else I can/should do? Other than worry myself sick?
     

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  2. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Andrea,I think you've done the right thing using the copper stuff,I used Bordeaux mix but it's a slow process.You could also try a 'Tebuconazole' product as another weapon in your armoury.I'm sure someone will recommend a suitable product as it's much more widely available to you than it is here.I'd say repeat the Phyton at the recommended intervals and keep your fingers crossed.As can be seen from my pics the tree will section off the damage but you'll never get the nice green bark back in that spot.The tree looks large enough to shrug it off hopefully.The darkness has moved round the trunk to a different spot on my tree so it's not completely gone,(nearly a year later)but now it's out of dormancy it can hopefully carry on the fight...it's leafing out nicely now.I'm guessing the bacteria got in thru that cracked bark(maybe frosted)on your tree and spread while dormant.
    Good luck
     

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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  3. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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  4. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    I didn't move my tree though it would probably be a good idea as it receives midday sun.I would site and treat it so it doesn't have to labour for anything Andrea,the proverbial 'sheltered dappled shade' position would probably be ideal and water as normal...basically just keep it relaxed and happy :)
     
  5. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Well, it's now weeping :( Suggestions?
     

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  6. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    I'd resigned myself to thinking the pathogen is inside my tree as it wasn't apparently wounded and jet black patches still appear(and disappear)outside the original position(a sign of weeping)...I hoped your tree wasn't as badly infected,mainly external but not so sure now.I don't know of any miracle cure,I hope someone does and am also open to suggestions but realise it's a big ask so I will probably just have to continue with the copper treatment.The original dark area has gone now and doesn't weep but obviously the bark etc. is dead in that area.I think ultimately we'll just have to hope the trees can eventually contain the infection, as I doubt our chemicals can penetrate everywhere the pathogen can.
     
  7. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    My last ditch attempt will be to cut away the affected area (and hope it doesn't go too deep), then treat with undiluted Bayer Disease Control, allow to dry/penetrate for a few hours, then treat with undiluted phyton 27 (my copper-based fungicide/bactericide). I'll keep it in sun, to hopefully help dry it out, keep the soil slightly drier, and be very, very careful when I water. The undiluted treatments and latter environmental factors were recommended by Diana (Topiary Gardens). Keeping my fingers crossed, but not holding out much hope. The tree will be kept away from other maples - but how far away should it be?
     
  8. opusoculi

    opusoculi Active Member

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    Weeping , that is serious . Phythophthora can be suspected.
    Did you observe roots in the container ? How are they ?

    If you cut away the affected area, you must disinfect tools and your hands.
    Keep away from other maples, yes, above all don't put other containers on the ancient or earlier place of your Matthew.
     
  9. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    I have not pulled it out of the pot - the tree was potted last year about this time, and it grew like a weed last summer (several shoots a few feet long). Also took full Kansas sun and heat without blinking, so maybe it got too stressed last year?? I can try pulling it out of the pot, is there anything in particular I should look for? It's still leafing out nicely, no wilt thus far.
     
  10. opusoculi

    opusoculi Active Member

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    Pull it out of the pot , take a picture of roots around the substrat, then try to have a look on big roots, do you see black or brown blobs.

    "Also took full Kansas sun and heat without blinking, so maybe it got too stressed last year?? " Full sun is terrible on containers, the substract becomes too hot + watering = roots deseases.

    Unpoting down ground.
     

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  11. DougieMapleSeed

    DougieMapleSeed Active Member

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    In my experience I have had bad results with the Bayer "3-In-1 Insect, Disease & Mite Control" product. It definitely killed several of my Acer shirasawanum maples, and stunted temporarily many of my Acer palmatums. In general, I recommend the Bayer "Advanced Disease Control for Rose, Flower and Shrubs" product instead (Tebuconazole only).
     
  12. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Andrea,

    Late to the thread. The answer to the original question posed is, sadly, very worried. Here's my take.

    Because of the good growth I wouldn't suspect root issues, but if you can check for phytopthora you should, as Oposoculi recommends. I would take care not to disturb the roots overly on the patient however. Even if you don't see anything you could do a drench with Aliette (Bayer) which is effective for phytopthora and doesn't bother the plant. Fast growth makes the maple susceptible to pseudomonas, sadly.

    I agree completely with Dougie, the 3-in-1 is aggressive and burns young twigs and leaves. The straight tebuconazole is what you want. Along with the Phyton (copper) of course, which remains the principle tool here.

    I would hold off on surgery unless I see the black advancing around the stem. If it appears contained, the copper is doing the job. Signs of the infection being beaten will be patches of white, usually forming from the inside of the formerly all-black patch.

    If the patch is growing I'd go right to surgery immediately, making sure to cut well away from the black, disinfect after each cut taking the usual precautions, and scrape and clean the entire area down to hard wood before disinfecting it. Then continue with the copper and tebuconazole.

    I wonder if the weeping is not sap which is interacting with the infection. In any case it should be kept cleaned off with a swap that has been immersed in bleach solution, or hydrogen peroxide is probably a good aid for cleaning here.

    Good luck! I detest these infections right around the graft union, they are the worst to deal with.

    -E
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
  13. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Hi Emery,just been reading our government info about phytopthora,seems yet another recent 'import' which threatens our trees.They say there is no cure for it and spreads by spores....I sincerely hope we've not got it.
    What is 'Alliette'?....is it a known cure?
    Today I've given it another treatment of the only tebuconazole product I can find but it only claims to be a fungicide/pesticide but is systemic.I've also watered with H2O2(35%)..15ml into 3L,do you think that is strong enough to kill anything in the soil?...worth a try
    This lack of any real winter we now have here is very worrying.I've already stopped doing any work on plants while dormant for a couple of years as I don't think it's safe anymore.Together with the increasing wet weather and temps. generally,and all the new imported diseases,I think these issues should be higher on governments agendas as it won't stop at just trees.....cheers :)
     
  14. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Houzi, I'm talking about this stuff:

    https://www.bayercropscience.us/products/fungicides/aliette

    I don't know about a cure, but it seems to be a tool against phytopthora. The French wiki mistakenly says it's a cure for verticilium, BTW.

    Erm, you don't want to sterilize the soil, you'll also kill the roots, no? I only use the 35% stuff at 2.5 ml/5l myself, for oxygenation. I'm not at home to look at the bottle and see the sterilization strength. That doesn't sound super strong, but...

    It was only 6 years ago we had a very cold winter, or even 2 that we heavy snow in march. Things are pretty aberrant, that's for sure! Then last winter it never froze even once (no frost!) an where this was a pretty "normal" winter for us, everything is now quite late coming out, with lots of pseudomonas issues getting into stems. Go figure...

    cheers, -E
     
  15. AlainK

    AlainK Well-Known Member Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi,

    It's fosetyl-aluminum (fosetyl-Al).

    It's not used as a spray on the foliage but in the soil, (some) bonsai growers use it as a preventive treatment rather than a cure, though they use it also when they show the first sign of a disease, esp. on conifers. I think it can be of some use if you have potted plants, but if you are into organic cultivation, that's a complette non-no.

    I found this pdf page from the Ministry of Agriculture, etc British Columbia, so it must be relialiable ;-)

    http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/pesticides/infosheets/fosetyl_al.pdf
     
  16. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    I ended up doing a drench of the Bayer Disease Control, not the 3 in 1, on the tree on Friday (27th), as well as a number of my other potted maples as a precaution.

    Yesterday, I did take it to a local plant guru (we call him George-opedia, lol) to help with removing the outer bark on the affected area - I'd never done this before, and wanted to know just what to do and how. Good news is that the blackening was larger on the outer bark than underneath, but there still is a fairly large area that is deeper into the trunk. When I got it home, I treated the exposed area with 100% Bayer Disease Control (dabbed on with a qtip), waited a few hours to dry and penetrate, then did the same with Phyton 27. I'm keeping it in mostly sun to help keep the area dry, and am being very careful when watering. It is also well away from other maples, and the runoff from the pot, goes away from all of them.

    Emery, I didn't think about the weeping possibly being the sap interacting with the infection; that's a good point. Yesterday, it was not weeping at all, even after we peeled the bark away. George recommended, too, a 10% bleach solution to keep the area sterilized, but I forget how often he said to do so - recommendations? Also, how paranoid do I need to be about rain? Should I bring it in if rain is in the forecast, or leave it outside? Any other precautions I should take?
     

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  17. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I would be very careful to keep it dry, including not leaving it out in the rain if possible. Personally I'd probably clean and treat with copper every day for about a week, then lower the frequency. Make sure the copper gets on the healthy bark around the edge of the cut.

    Two things I notice: there are still some infected areas in the center of the area where the bark hasn't all been removed, and you didn't take the branch off. I would scrape a little more so that there's no black left. Also I thought looking earlier that you were going to lose the branch anyway, so I would have taken it off now. It looks to me as if in the center picture there's a little black visible at the bottom of the branch. But YMMV!

    Pic 3 shows nice surgery. I really hope it works.

    cheers,

    -E
     
  18. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Good luck with your tree Andrea,I sincerely hope this will be a relatively quick end to your troubles.Looking back to my 1st posts,I've been fighting this for nearly a year now...not over yet.Strange thing is the jet black can appear and disappear on my tree,especially when painted with copper.It's almost as though the tree is reacting to the copper as well which I've never had before.
    Emery,I'm sure I read H2O2 can be used to 'clean up' the soil a bit but cannot remember the dilution.Can also be used as a foliar fungicide....and thanks to you and Alain for the info/links regarding 'Aliette'.Seems quite a useful product to have especially these days(wonder why the web seems to suggest there's no cure?)Looks like it'll have to come from Germany for me though and packaged in 10g granular sachets(not Bayer),Would this be because it doesn't keep well/absorbs moisture?
     
  19. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    Emery, when you recommend cleaning daily, how/with what? Just wipe it down (q-tips?) with a 10% bleach solution, then re-applying the phyton? For the phyton, straight or diluted as per the label? When I applied the phyton initially, and the Bayer, I did apply to the visibly affected area as well as the unaffected.

    I will look at scraping away more of the infected area in the middle - how deep is safe? We elected to not remove the branch because it didn't appear that the infection had spread to/past the branch collar. If it looks to start creeping that way, the branch will come off.

    Houzi, when yours has had re-occurrence of the infection, does it reappear at the same spot, or will you find the blackening showing up in different areas on the tree? When it has reappeared, have there been any other factors - environmental or otherwise - that have been the same prior to it showing up again, or that seem to trigger it?

    My biggest is worry is that I may be able to keep the infection on hold for now as we are still fairly cool and dry (though we did hit 86 today!), but later on in late spring/early summer, we will start to get quite humid and then the really hot temps of summer will set in, along with the humidity (90Fs to low 100Fs is typical for the entire months of July and August, with lows barely hitting 85F). Any plant gets stressed during this time, and I know pseudomonas thrives in those conditions. :(
     
  20. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I'd use a cotton pad, like for makeup removal, but I'm sure a q-tip would be fine, maybe better. Personally I don't use copper at stronger than the recommended dosage, but I know others here do, and I don't profess to know anything more about it than they.

    In the few times I've had to do this operation, I've scraped down to the bare wood. At that point you're not in living material any more, so you can go as deep as necessary, the point is that damage you do will be structural if you go too far. Also I'd guess that you don't want to make a concave area which will trap further infections and be difficult to heal over, like any hole.


    I would certainly make sure to keep this plant in the shade, and continue to keep the wound as dry as possible. I'd keep on with copper every week or two, also. But my experience is that once the plant is actively growing the bark has a lot better chance of fighting off pseudomonas. For me this is the main time to worry, just before full leaf out...

    -E
     
  21. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Andrea,I believe the pathogen is inside the trunk of my tree but I can only see signs of it where it weeps.Mine doesn't seem to weep liquid like yours,it's more like a sweating motion,barely able to pick up any moisture on my finger when touching it.The black 'sweating' appears and disappears in different spots but localised to the bottom few inches of the trunk.However I don't think the moisture itself is black,just a reaction with the pathogen I'm guessing.It may have sweated more when I water,not 100% sure but seems to do more when copper applied.This makes me wonder if it's the tree trying to flood the area but I don't know.Presently there's no jet black sweating even though I've recently watered it but the bark is discolured(light&dark) and I'm sure it's still present.I'm sure when I re-apply the copper it will sweat again but this may not be a sign of the infection spreading/new infection,more likely it's making what's already there more visible.I cannot perform surgery like you as there is no clearly defined area of infection,I presume it's round most of the trunk so surgery would entail wiping out most of my plant as it's multi stems are just above this area.I agree with Emery that your priority now is to get the wound healed over as quick as possible and use the copper to provide a barrier against reinfection....that's what it does best.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  22. opusoculi

    opusoculi Active Member

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    Thanks Emery for the detailed surgery explanation . Thanks maplesandpaws for sharing
    that experience very useful for many of us.

    @Houzi . hydrogen peroxide H2O2 35%. (Never mix with nutritiv éléments)
    As writen on "oxyboost" bottle:
    -general use in hydroponic: 2,5ml mixed in 10l of water.
    This is low but for use once a day.
    -desinfection of water: 50ml mixed with 10l of water = sterilisation immediatly activ.
    I never try to use it on foliage or on ground.

    -for little Acers i use 10ml/15ml mixed in 10L of water. I know Alain (in Orléans) use it too.

    Aliette express J by Fertiligene (500 and 800 gr) is sold in France Belgium Italy and Spain, also Bayer.
    10 gr is not enough ! This granular keep well (but in dry room, naturaly).
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  23. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Thanks Opusoculi for dilution rates.I usually use 5ml/10l when I want to airate the soil but wanted to try something a little stronger.I haven't used it as foliar spray either as I always have a fungicide somewhere anyway....to be honest,I rarely get fungus on leaves.Aliette doesn't seem available directly within UK,all the suppliers here I've seen seem to get it from Germany.The 10g weight is meaningless to me as I don't know the concentration within the granules or the final strength they will produce when mixed.I guess they can vary.
    Cheers
     
  24. opusoculi

    opusoculi Active Member

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    fosetyl-aluminum (fosetyl-Al)."Aliette".

    Alain wrote:
    -"It's not used as a spray on the foliage but in the soil,".
    The cure for Phythophthora (and canker too) is 10 gr/10 l watering 3 times from Mai to september". Gathering is the main important (you can immerce the pot) and you can also spray on the foliage together; it's systemic.

    -"but if you are into organic cultivation, that's a complette non-no."
    I am not sure of that. Aliette is mainly used in agriculture for plantations in ground of Citrus , Vine (protect from mildiew), Strawberry etc... without botheration for plant and soil.
     
  25. AlainK

    AlainK Well-Known Member Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    You're right: it's because my bonsai friends only use it for the soil and I assumed it was the only way, I was wrong, thanks for putting things straight.

    Right again: "Truffaut" says it can be used in organic cultures.

    Thanks a lot, it's always good to get rid of preconcieved ideas that one keeps on repeating after the others. Now I'll try to swallow my shame for posting wrong info...
     

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