Help With Huge Plant

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by kraftylady89, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    i HAVE A HUGE PLANT IT HAS VERY LONG STEMS WITH HUGE LEAVES. IT HAS TAKEN OVER AN ENTIRE CORNER OF MY LIVING ROOM . IT SPANS ABOUT 5 FOOT ACROSS, PLEASE HELP ME!!! i DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND IT IS OR IF I CAN TIE IT UP., I WILL ATTEMPT A PHOTO. THANKS SO MUCH PHOTO HERE:
     
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  2. joclyn

    joclyn Rising Contributor

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    it looks like some type of philodendron or maybe a monstera.

    looks to be in good health, too. what you're seeing is the normal growth pattern.

    it could probably use a larger container. and i think you're going to have to put it on the floor.
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Philodendron selloum (P. binnatifidum) is a common one that looks like this. It grows 6-15 ft. high and wide.
     
  4. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    Ok now that I knwo what it is how can I contain it? Can I tie it up? The pot is quite larger than the photo shows, but probably need repotting? Can I put it outside ? SHade,sun? Thanks for your help.
     
  5. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    The information posted in this answer is INCORRECT! I am leaving it up so anyone can see the progression and understand. In a post later in the thread I state I believe the plant in the photo at the top of this thread is actually a natural hybrid known to collectors as Philodendron 'Evansii'. IT IS NOT A SPECIES and is in fact a member of section Meconostigma. There is a reason for my bad information and you will read it later! I just want it known for anyone who reads this thread new to understand the progression before you read. You may learn something new, exactly as I did!

    Steve


    This appears to be Philodendron lacerum (Jacq.) Schott. The species has one synonym name which is Philodendron inciso-crenatum Kunth which is no longer valid in science but is now only a synonym. The species Philodendron lacerum was published to science in Wiener Zeitschrift für Kunst, Litteratur, Theater und Mode in 1829. It is known only from the Caribbean islands of Jamaica, Cuba and Haiti as well as likely the Dominican Republic. And it does grow quite large.

    Scientific information is rather scarce and I have a meeting with botanist Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden next week. This plant is on the list of things to discuss so I'll post what I can once I learn more. I have one specimen in my collection.

    The species is an aroid and we might be able to learn more if this thread was transferred to the aroid forum. Aroids produce an inflorescence known as a spathe and spadix which is not a "flower" but instead a modified leaf. There are good discussions on the aroid forum about similar species.

    I've sent a note to grower Buddy Poulsen in Florida who grows this plant. His photos indicate it is a climbing vine and can grow large. In the forest it would likely climb any tree and reach great heights in a lifetime. It is variable and will morph with age. The blades will become much larger as it climbs. Most aroid species are seeking bright light and climb in order to reach it. That will give you some idea as to how to grow it. You should be able to grow it outdoors during warm months but it will need something to attach to in order to climb rather than spread. These are epiphytic plants and climb trees and some are not necessarily good house plants as a result of their need to climb. Philodendron should be given well draining soil with lots of fast draining media added including compost or peat, Perlite and lots of orchid bark. The roots want to attach to wood. The soil should remain evenly moist and it will tolerate bring indirect light. During winter it must be protected from any low temperatures.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  6. lorax

    lorax Rising Contributor 10 Years

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    OK, here we go.

    Many Philodendrons prefer to climb, so if you can give yours something to climb up it may be considerably happier (and more out of the way!). You can gently tie the leaves up or back by their petioles (stems) so long as you are very cautious not to crack them off the main stem or to bruise the stems. I'm not sure about re-potting, but I don't think you should risk putting it outside - NY and the tropics are quite different climates!

    I'd wait and see what Steve can dig up - he's very knowledgable about plants of this family!
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Philodendrons of this type are not vining.
     
  8. Bluewing

    Bluewing Well-Known Member

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    No reason why you can't stake your plant with something like soft twine. The twine should be tied at the stake, not near the leaves.
     
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Got this from Buddy Poulsen in Naples, FL it appears to show P. lacerum as a vining climber. Much more research to do on my part. Remember, this too is a variable species. Don't understand that? Find the link for Natural Variation within species. In this photo which was taken by the original collector you can see MANY vines climbing the tree. My specimen which is shown later was taken as a cutting from this plant. Again, you need to understand variation and the difference in a juvenile and an adult leaf blade. it is just like looking at a child and then how that child will appear once grown. They are very different.

    Another note. The plant in this photo is an adult Phlodendron lacerum. It is not the same as the photo at the top. Read on and you'll learn why.
     

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  10. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I was able to access JSTOR this morning for a tiny bit of information on Philodendron lacerum. The site (which is primarily for scientists) indicates Philodendron lacerum is a rain forest species found primarily on the island of Jamaica but also on the other islands I noted earlier. It is stated to be an epiphytic climber. Epiphytes are plants that grow attached to another plant so this would certainly be a climbing vine. The vine can grow quite thick as is evident from my own plant and the photo provided by Buddy Poulsen in Florida.

    As a result, I'd certainly recommend as tall a piece of rough timber as possible in order to allow your specimen to climb. You will need to tie the plant to that timber until it self attaches using the tie wire available in garden centers. You can easily buy it in rolls of 100 feet or more. It will likely take some months for the plant to self attach but at time you can remove the wires and have a beautiful specimen that is more compact.

    Philodendron of this type are relatively easy to propagate simply by taking a cutting that has some of the aerial roots attached above the cut. Place those new cuttings in a well draining soil mix, and not plain potting soil. The mixture used by many aroid collectors contains a moisture control soil mix, Perlite, peat moss, gravel and orchid potting media containing bark and charcoal. The purpose of such a mixture is to force the soil to drain quickly.

    This is a natural rain forest species and lives in some of the higher elevations of Jamaica. I lived on that island for two years in 1979 and 1980 and recall seeing it up in the rain forest but at the time had no idea what species it might have been.

    Rain forest plants should be kept in bright light that is indirect with the soil evenly moist. Do not try to drown the plant but also avoid allowing it to completely dry. The specimen given to me was from a dry grown plant and had ragged tears through the otherwise beautiful blades. We now grow it inside our artificial rain forest with a 7 foot totem and has added two new leaves in less than two months. And I will also photograph my own specimen today as a comparison.

    I will try to get a copy of he scientific information next week from Dr. Croat.

    Again, the ID Philodendron lacerum does not match the plant in the first link! I explain my mistake shortly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Shape, shade of green and degree of glossiness shown in linked picture of specimen asked about and picture posted here of P. lacerum do not look the same to me. Another difference is that plant asked about has a free-standing tuft of leaves all originating at the same point, as though borne on the top of a short upright stem - in the manner of P. selloum - rather than dispersed along the long stems of a climbing plant as in the picture of P. lacerum. The P. lacerum shown here looks like it would flop over or creep if not staked.
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Attached is a confirmed photo of Philodendron bipinnatifidum Schott ex Endl which everyone calls Philodendron selloum. P. selloum is no longer an accepted name according to aroid botanist Dr. Simon Mayo at the Kew in London.

    Check the lobe count on the photo above. Philodendron lacerum is known to be a highly variable species and I've now confirmed in two scientific sources it is epiphytic and climbs. I'll bring all of this up with Dr. Croat one week from today and will post his opinions once I return.

    I'm going out to photograph my specimen right now so the original poster can tell us if my plant is a match.

    This infact is Philodendron bipinnatifidum. It is infact one of the parents of the hybrid known to collectors and to science incorrectly as Philodendron 'Evansii'. This is not a species but instead a natural hybrid.
     

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  13. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    This is my juvenile specimen of Philodendron lacerum. As can be seen by comparing the two photos, each is quite unique. The photo was just taken in the rain but I felt it important to get this posted so got out there to do it. Both Philodendron lacerum and Philodendron bipinnatifidum are extremely variable in nature. Many leaf forms can be observed.

    In personal communication with Dr. Simon Mayo at the Kew he explained P. selloum was at one time a recognized species but is no longer valid within science. That plant is native to Brazil and is a member of Philodendron section Meconostigma. The species in that section are known as the "tree species" and may stand completely alone and free in the jungle. But they may also climb trees as an epiphytic form.

    Philodendron lacerum is not a member of section Meconostigma and is a climbing vine. It is native to the Caribbean primarly the island of Jamaica plus Cuba and the island shared by the Dominican Republic and Haiti. I will post as much more as possible once I am able to get a copy of the scientific description from Dr. Croat and secure his input.

    This link contains an explanation of natural variation within species and numeorus photos have been supplied by aroid growers to demonstrate variation.

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=40385

    I would also ask the original poster of the first photo to confirm if the plant they are growin appears to be the same one in my photo.

    See importan note below!! This photo is actually Philodendron lacerum which does not match the plant in the first post above.
     

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  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    This is the base common to all members of Section Meconostigma. I need to know if the base of the plant in the original photo looks like this. I cannot see it in the original photo which is why I suspect it is Philodendron lacerum. P. lacerum is not a member of this Philodendron section.

    We really need to see a detailed photo of a single leaf, any inflorescence the plant may have produced (what most would call a flower), the base of the plant and the aerial roots. The more photos possible will help with an ID.

    Variation within Philodendron species is extremely common and without more details it will be impossible to be certain. This photo is of the base of a large Philodendron bipinnatifidum (commonly called "selloum" by collectors. But the same base is common to all members of Philodendron section Meconostigma. And all are native to Brazil. This plant stands well over 2 meters tall with a span of close to 2 meters. And it is still a "baby". I've seen them grow up trees to 20 meters! Although most growers grow them as free standing plants it loves to climb any tree it can grab.

    Anyone interested in learning about how aroids grow in the rain forest would do well to read my thread on natural variation. A lot of people refuse to believe it but it is based in science.

    And Daniel, since this thread has become of use to the people who read aroid posts, this one would do well in that section. The scars on the base are simply where old leaves have dropped off.

    Note: My friend and aroid expert Julius Boos just checked this thread and reminded me the photo of the Meconostigma base had been posted upside down. My apologies. That has been corrected. Although he agreed with me it appears we did not catch this in time. This is infact the base of a section Meconostigma. And the plant is the first link is also a Meconostigma even though the base has has not yet developed. The plant in the original photo is a juvenile, not an adult. It will grow in size up to almost 20 feet!
     

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  15. trikus

    trikus Active Member

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    There does seem to be to many leaves for it to be a climber , esp. if it has been grown indoors for ages .. I have seen P lacerum climbing way up palms at Whyanbeel Arboretum ,, and also seen countless Meconostigma hybrids done by a few local growers .. you would only get that amount of foliage on a self header ,,imho ,, unless the long stem has been wrapped around the inside of the pot !! unlikely as it sounds .
     
  16. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Here is a visual comparison of the photos. You must consider natural variation within species which includes leaf morphing, age of the plant, conditions grown under and the fact that leaf color can easily change in nature due to many circumstances including the amount of light offered.

    The lower leaf lobes on the original specimen are very similar to the loves of my juvenile plant but nothing like Philodendron selloum which is correctly P. bipinnatifidum. Also consider that my juvenile plant is a direct cutting of Buddy Poulsen's plant shown last. His is adult, mine is juvenile. That will change as the plant morphs.

    My guess is the original plant has been grown indoors under subdued light, yet my plant is very similar in form and color and is grown in a greenhouse. Natural variation as well as how a plant is grown has a great deal to do with final appearance, shape and color of a plant. Shape has zero do do with species.

    There is info in A.B. Graf's books that somewhat contradicts this but Mr. Graf's works have been almost totally disregarded by botanical science since they are filled with name and detail errors. Mr. Graf was not a botanist, he was simply a collector who used many wrong names. As a result, any aroid botanist is suspicious of Tropica or Exotica.

    I will show all of these to Dr. Croat next week. But I see no evidence this is a Meconostigma. Thus it cannot be "selloum" or P. bipinnatifidum.

    The first photo is Philodendron bipinnatifidum. It is one of the parents of the plant at the top of this thread! The second and third are Philodendron 'Evansii' but are of a juvenile form. The last photo is Philodendron lacerum.
     

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  17. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I just attempted to send a request via the email system to kraftylady89 but her preference is to not accent email. I've done all I can possibly do to offer a correct identification based on science and no additional photos have been offered. Therefore, this will be my final post to this thread. In order to ID any species accurately more information will be required and it does not appear that information and or photos is going to be posted. Therefore, anyone is free to accept any species name they choose.
     
  18. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    Well it seems as I am needed! It is really interesting on how this plant is stumping everyone? Ok The photos do look like my plant.My plant has long tuber like rooks that sprout out of the pot. I have attched several more photos.

    The last photo is the tuber i am holding. Thanks will get back here later today. Millie
     
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  19. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Only observations, and I don't feel stumped at all. But everyone can choose as they will:

    1) I see no base to indicate this is a Meconostigma. That would rule out "selloum", correctly Philodendron bipinnatifidum.

    2) The leaf blade appears to me to be identical in design to the juvenile leaf of Philodendron lacerum. But the species is known to be highly variable which simply means it can produce more than a single leaf blade shape. Again, anyone can choose what they wish to accept. I say that largely because of the number of lobes on the plant just posted along with the upper lobes which are quite unique. I am again sending this link to a grower in Florida that specializes in growing Philodendron lacerum. This page was just reviewed by an aroid expert and he tends to agree with my assessment.

    I am going to print all of these photos and take them to Dr. Croat on Friday. He is the world's leading authority of plants in this genera. But if anyone would rather believe this is "selloum", feel free.

    I was wrong! The plant shown by Kraftylady is still a juvenile! Assumng it is Philodendron 'Evansii' and that has to be confirmed, it will grow to be massive! I've seen photos of plants 20 feet tall (well over 6 meters).
     
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  20. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    Thanks so much Steve! So this will climb if I tie her up?
     
  21. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Assuming it is Philodendron lacerum, which is my belief based on your photos, definitely. I've seen the plant wild in Jamaica and it climbs high into the rain forest trees up near where some of the rum factories are located. I've just had an aroid expert look at it with the same conclusion. I've also sent the link to a Florida grower that has not responded this morning but grows the species P. lacerum climbing well up into his trees. If you click the one photo I posted from Buddy Poulsen you can clearly see the vines clinging to the tree.

    Buddy should be responding to this thread. The young plant I posted which has lobes similar to your plant was taken directly from the large plant Buddy grows which is a climber.

    Since it appears you are growing this indoors I would personally put it on a slightly filtered porch for the summer. Keep the soil damp and add a large piece of timber or tall plant totem. Tie the plant to either and you should see it begin to clasp on in a matter of months. I prefer to use the green tie wire you can buy at any home improvement garden center since it can easily be loosened as needed. Others prefer twine.

    BUT, I am going to show all of this to Dr. Thomas B. Croat at the Missouri Botanical Garden next Friday. Tom is a personal friend and mentor and is the world's leading authority in the aroid species of this genus. His only close peer would be Dr. Simon Mayo of the Royal Botanic Garden Kew in London who is the world's top expert in Brazilian Philodendron, especially those in section Meconostigma. If Tom disagrees with my assessment I will post whatever he says. And I'll likely forward all the photos to Simon since he is also one of my mentors.

    Now, you should be aware, I have already received several personal emails from a grower who totally disagrees! I don't believe in fussing over this and will await Tom's opinion.

    Again, I was wrong! I believe Kraftylady's plant to be Philodendron 'Evansii'. This still must be confirmed.
     
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  22. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Just so there is no question I am going to attempt to manipulate these photos to achive a particular outcome, this is precisely what I am emailing at this moment to Dr. croat. I will print a hard copy and take it along.

    Last time, the answer is just below!
     

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  23. kraftylady89

    kraftylady89 Member

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    Thank you Steve for all your time, I will wait until you hear from Dr Croat. Millie
     
  24. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    If you will, send me a private note so I can put your name of the photos I am showing to Dr. Croat in person. None of these will be used anywhere but for his purposes of identification.
     
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  25. greenthumb7

    greenthumb7 Member

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    If photopro can't get to the bottom of it no one can!!!
     

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