help id this palmtree

Discussion in 'Outdoor Tropicals' started by allen, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. allen

    allen Member

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    im trying to id this palm. It is a clumping palm with some trunks protruding from a few feet above the base. It has a main trunk of about 14ft with 13 or 14 more trunks and pups ranging from 1ft to 10ft. It produces dates, (green at the moment) and the blue gray fronds do have 4inch slender thorns, the shanks being on the soft side, not real ridged. After doing research, I think its a Jubaeopsis Caffra, but i only had a photo of one with all the trunks no taller then a foot.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  2. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Allen ... I took the liberty of posting your request with a few experts in the feild. I'm of the belief it's a Phoenix species or hybrid. I'll report back what the findings are from these knowledgable palmophiles.

    Cheers, LPN.
     
  3. alex66

    alex66 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    maybe Phoenix canariensis.....
     
  4. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Phoenix canariensis doesn't have a clustering habit like the photos have shown.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I also thought it looked like a date palm. If the multiple trunks are the only hang-up for that one then maybe it's simply one of those with an aberrant habit. What happens if you cuit one off, does it come back as a clump?
     
  6. allen

    allen Member

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    im posting more photos in order to give you a better idea. it has been suggested by friends of mine also in the field, that it might be some sort of dact hybrid as was commented here, but what bothers me is that the girth of the fronds on the 14 ft trunk are much smaller then the typical dact frond, and have no orange color at their bases at all as most ive seen do, unless obviously its a dactylifria hybrid that ive never seen before. In fact ive found no one in the business that has seen one like this. the dates also are smaller then a typical dact (medjool,daglett noor, or zahidis). the photo posted is of a clumping caffra that seems to have the same fronds from what i can tell, but the pic is to small to tell for sure.
     

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  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Doesn't look like the Date Palms I've seen in Morocco. The leaves are too strongly erect at the base, and too arched over at their tips.
     

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  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Notice the multiple trunks originating from the same point.
     
  9. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    My contacts have completely ruled out Jubaeopsis caffra as a possiblity. The general concensus is a hybridized Phoenix species, with parentage of dactilifera or pehaps a victim of it's groing conditions.
    One person wondered if there was crown damage (terminal bud) at some point to create such a heavy suckering habit. Another suggested "many seedlings sprouted together, never divided and planted out?"
    Either way, Phoenix with a strong P. dactilifera trait crossed with perhaps P. sylvestris may be the case here.

    Cheers, LPN.
     
  10. allen

    allen Member

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    L.P.N., thank you very much for the info. i'm beginning to think the same way even though in all the Calif dact groves i've been to, i've never seen anything close. of course they are planted as single trunks for harvesting. if you happen to stumble upon anything in the future resembling this, feel free to post as im always interested in the unusual.
     
  11. Valentina30

    Valentina30 Member

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    allen, to me looks like Phoenix reclinata, a hybrid between many species of Phoenix (roebelennii, dactylifera ...) huge clumps coming out from the same trunk.
     
  12. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Will do! Again it appears to be a victim of the crowded conditions it's been growing under which produced the unusual habit. Thanks for the posting!

    Cheers, LPN.
     
  13. allen

    allen Member

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    valentina 30 we considered that species, except the reclinatas im familiar with have slender trunks of maybe 6-8 inches. this palms trunk is at least 2ft thick, but thanks for the input allen
     
  14. allen

    allen Member

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    michael F your right, the fronds on my species do look a bit different. Im going to box that tree on the 20th, at that time i'll remove a frond from it and one from a dact that i have. i'll lay them side by side and if there's a big difference i'll photograph them and post the pic's. thanks allen
     
  15. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    That might obscure the differences - much of what I'm seeing as different is in the angle of bearing of the leaves on the stem, and the flexibility of the leaf rachis, both things which will be lost on cut leaves!

    Here's an exaggerated indication of how I see the differences:
     

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  16. allen

    allen Member

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    yes, thats what i see, also not to mention the fact that several of the fronds on my palm also twist just a bit within the first foot or two from the trunk. again, the thickness of the frond itself is also much thinner or narrower then a dact frond, yet the trunk does resemble the dact trunk, but then again so do the trunks of many species. i'll try to get some more detailed pics posted asap.
     
  17. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The reason the dimensions and proportions are different are simply because of the crowded conditions in which the palm(s) where subject to.
    There's evidence of a signifigant pruning in the photos too with many cut fronds scattered on the ground. This pruning brings the palms form into a different light and allows one to see the difficult conditions it had been exposed to. Left unchecked, these palms will develop un-cultivated habits.

    Cheers, LPN.
     
  18. allen

    allen Member

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    take a look at these recent pics i took today, and tell me what you think. also you will see in the arm span, of where trunks are breaking out or originating several feet above the base of the tree. take note of the close up of the fronds too. it could very well be a dact hybrid, but when your next to it , it looks so different. notice the thorn size. also the home owner says the dates turn bright yellow not brown as dacts do. intresting! allen
     

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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2007
  19. allen

    allen Member

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    more pics. I want to add, the dates on this palm are much smaller then those of dacts. allen
     

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