Heirloom tomatoes

Discussion in 'Fruit and Vegetable Gardening' started by Roger Priddle, Feb 3, 2009.

  1. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Hi. I have a very interested local farmer willing to grow about 100 plants of heirloom tomatoes. He has a roadside stand in a good tourist area so he'll sell them - if not, I've promised I would buy them.

    The question then is what tomatoes should we get? We're thinking 5-10 varieties, if there are that many good choices. That would mean 10-20 plants. We're in Central Ontario on Georgian Bay - the farm is about 2 km from the water and up about 100 feet - not sure if there is a significant micro-climate or if it would just be general area climate. We're starting the seeds early April so they're ready in August.

    The goal is heirloom (non-hybrid, non GM, seeds will breed true), requiring minimal "inputs". If tomatoes work, we'll be expanding the range next year. (He does all the work, I have good ideas...<sigh>) We'd like some for instant gratification (pick, slice, eat) and maybe one for canning, because that's the other thing I'm interested in.

    Anyway help and advice of all sorts would be appreciated. 100 mile diet is a challenge here - we don't have near the access to fresh stuff that Ditchmond does - but we're doing what we can.

    TIA

    Roger Priddle
     
  2. plantian

    plantian Member

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    Yes, I'd definitely mix it up with a few varieties, that's the beauty of heirlooms is the rich colors, sizes and shapes you can choose from. I think the more varieties the better - people seem to like buying baskets of mixed heirlooms from what I've seen.

    I'm not sure if you need to worry about the varieties cross-pollinating each other, and not growing true from seed next year, but you can always buy a fresh batch of seeds next year - some of your favorites from this year and some new ones to experiment with.

    Good luck,
    Raffi
    http://www.plants.am
     
  3. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Roger, I can't tell you what would work for you but these grew well for me last year.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CzhxI0nL3qvJ0rwqAdjQaw?feat=directlink

    Julia Childs', Black Prince, Clint Eastwood's Rowdy Red, Marianna's peace, and the Super Snow Whites.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 11, 2009
  4. itlajfk

    itlajfk Member

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    Hi Roger,

    I live on the South Shore of Nova Scotia, so I'm thinking our climates and growing seasons might be similar. Anyway, last year I grew several varieties of heirloom tomatoes and by far, my two favorites were Cosmonaut Volkov and Blue Beech. I was looking for tomatoes to make sauce with, but was pleasantly surprised to find that both served equally as well as 'eating' tomatoes fresh off the vine, both dried beautifully, both made excellent sauce and both were very prolific producers. And these tomatoes grew BIG!

    However, be forewarned - mine cross-pollinated to some extent. If you are planning on saving your seeds for a crop next year, and you want them to be true to type, there are a few things you need to do to make that happen. I did the research on this (after the fact, of course), and came the conclusion that it's easier to just buy new seeds each year.

    Good luck with your project!

    Jo-Ann
     
  5. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Many thanks to the encouragement from all three of you. Apparently we're in Hardiness Zone 4B - now I just have to find out what that means. Then I need to find out which varieties are rated for that zone.

    However, so far the biggest challenge seems to be finding a source for the different varieties that all of you have mentioned. I hadn't thought about cross pollination but it makes sense - that may be a step we're not prepared to get into at this point.

    And I really like the idea of offering mixed boxes. I guess that depends a lot on when things are ripe and ready but it should intrigue the locals who have read of but never tried heirloom varieties (like me <grin>).

    So, any suggestions on how to get the seeds? Apparently they get started in a greenhouse in this part of the world about April 5 so they're ready for the tourists by the middle of August. (I have no practical gardening knowledge - I just do research.) (Although that seems to be changing...)

    I truly do appreciate your (plural) responses - what a great resource this is!

    Roger
     
  6. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Roger:
    I find these folks at Tomatofest very accomdating and they have a mind boggling array of heirlooms.
    P.s. They ship by mail making purchases sensible.

    http://www.tomatofest.com/

    Good luck

    Bob
     
  7. JanR

    JanR Active Member

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  8. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Hi and thanks for the links. I'm going to talk to one that is (somewhat) local to me. Eagerly anticipating some really neat tomatoes this summer (if it ever comes.....)

    Roger
     
  9. Bazette3

    Bazette3 Member

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    go to "Seed Savers" at www.seedsavers.org They have a huge listing of heirloom seeds. Also "Seeds of Diversity" - which is the Canadian version of seedsavers.
     
  10. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Many thanks, Bazette3. That is a great source of information - now to try to pick the right one(s) <sigh>.

    Reading an earlier post reminds me of another question - if I want to dehydrate tomatoes how long should I expect a batch (what ever a "batch" is) to take?

    I'm planning built a solar reflector from a satellite dish, use that to heat a mass (possibly an old woodstove) and put the sliced tomatoes on screens stacked above the mass. On a sunny day, I should generate about 3,000 watts so I'd have to move things around but I don't know if I can expect them to dry in one day or not. No idea - new to everything.

    Any help will be appreciated.

    Roger
     
  11. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    From the little I know of the process it seems quite labour intensive and requires a lot of time at low temperatures to completely dry the tomatoes without encouraging mold etc.
    I guess the time would depend on how thick you intend to slice your tomatoes.
    A thermal drier is an option but you may have to google the net to see some examples.
    If it's a good year you should have you hands full just tending your Toms. ;-)

    Around here , by the time I harvest there is not enough sun power left to dry them.
    http://www.pickyourown.org/tomatoes_sun_dried.htm
    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  12. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Bob -thanks for the link. Seems to be all sorts of good stuff.

    I have a restriction on how to dry stuff since our home is off-grid, hence my idea of using the "sunflower". I guess the reality is that I'm going to have to try it and find out - I wonder what "tomato leather" tastes like...<grin>

    Ah well, it's all a learning experience.

    Roger
     
  13. itlajfk

    itlajfk Member

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    Hi Roger,

    I did a lot of research on dehydrators two years ago, particularly DIY solar units. There are lots of designs out there on the internet, but what I learned out of all of it was that you need fairly consistent temperatures (not too hot), really good air circulation and protection from pests/insects. Humidity can play a big part was well, depending on how and where you are drying. Anyway, I was so busy tending the garden, I ended up buying a small Excalibur dryer as I didn't have the time to work through all these issues and build my own solar dryer before last year's tomato crop was ready and I really did want to dry some of my tomatoes. The Excalibur is an excellent little dehydrator as it has a built in fan, comes in various sizes (even the small one holds a ton) but it won't help you if you're off the grid.

    Another thing I learned from personal experience is that some tomatoes dry faster than others. The thicker-skinned 'paste' tomatoes tended to dry fairly quickly, whereas the juicier tomatoes were slower. When I say 'quickly', I think it took about 8-10 hours at 130 degrees F for large paste tomatoes cut into quarters and about 10-12 hours for the juicier ones cut the same way, in the drier. That's dried to the point where they're still supple versus crispy. The preparation was minimal, wash, cut, sprinkle with spices, lay on the racks in the dryer, then check them periodically. Far less work than canning and they taste divine! I dried about 50 lbs which seems like a lot for personal use, but it's amazing how they shrink to nothingness which is great if you have a storage issue.

    Let us know how your 'sunflower' works out!

    Jo-Ann
     
  14. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Nice post Jo-Ann, just the stuff we novices need to learn.
    Thanks
    p.s. could we not cut the "juicies" a bit narrower to even out the drying process?

    Bob
     
  15. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Thanks for the note Jo-Ann. I'm just starting my research. It makes sense that constancy of heat would be important - I'm hoping to achieve that by focusing on a mass rather than the food. I'm on a beach and the front of the house faces due south and is sheltered from any breeze. I can almost get 130 sitting in a chair! However, although space is not a problem, electricity is. My plan is to heat the stove and stack the food on bread-trays (you know those 30x30 stacking things with foldable legs) suspended above the stove. There should be lots of air movement by convection and I plan to shroud the whole stack with cheesecloth.

    Is there an issue with over heating the tomatoes as they dry? Or over drying them? Equinox is Sept. 22 so by the time tomatoes come in I may be hard pressed to get 10 hours drying time...

    Roger
     
  16. itlajfk

    itlajfk Member

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    Hi Bob & Roger,

    Bob - I suppose you could cut the juicier tomatoes into smaller pieces, but you might end up with tomato 'chips'. Remember, once the drying process is complete, all you are left with is the 'meat' of the tomato as the pulp and all the juices basically disappear (which, I suppose is why the paste tomatoes dry so well as they tend to be less juicy and less pulpy to start with.

    Roger - A question re your trays - do you mean those racks that are used for cooling cookies and such? The ones I use (for baking) have a pretty big mesh, about 3/4" spacing. If this is what you are thinking of you will probably have to place some kind of screening on top so your tomatoes don't fall through when they have dried.

    Re overheating & over drying - If you can control the heat from your wood stove and your racks are suspended high enough above it, you probably won't have an issue with overheating (as in burning the bottom of the tomatoes). However, I have had personal experience with over drying having turned on the dryer in the afternoon and forgetting to turn it off before going to bed. Yes, you can definitely over dry, and as I mentioned to Bob, you will end up with tomato chips. Probably not what you have in mind and certainly not what I had in mind.

    Hope this helps!

    Jo-Ann
     
  17. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Hi JO Ann:
    If you have two slices of tomatoes both with an ounce of water in them shouldn't they pretty much dry out the same amount regardless of thickness (within reason)?

    Why would one become a potato chip is what I'm not getting?

    Bob
     
  18. itlajfk

    itlajfk Member

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    Unfortunate reference to 'chip', sorry. I'm not explaining myself very well.

    If I start with two equal weight tomatoes, one really juicy (which implies it has a thinner skin, more pulp and less actual meat) and one paste tomato (thicker skin, less juice, more meat). I cut each into quarters. I will probably lose 75-80% of the first tomato in the drying process and maybe 60-75% of the second tomato. I'm making these percentages up by the way, for illustrative purposes. The dried quarters of the first tomato will weigh less than those of the second. If I make the first tomato quarters smaller by say, cutting them in half again, I will certainly speed up the process, but I will end up with teeny weeny bits of dried tomato.

    Does this make sense?

    Jo-Ann
     
  19. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    I can see where you are comming from now Jo Ann.
    The few tomatoes that I have tried this way ended up sticking to my trays so I am a long way from being able to offer a solution as yet.
    For now, I will follow your lead Kimo Sabby. <g>


    Bob
     
  20. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Ok - I follow the logic about drying times, and I understand the effect of cutting the raw tomato in smaller pieces before you start drying, but...

    I'm guessing that actually scorching the tomato will change the taste (and probably not in a good way.) I don't see what the problem would be with having smaller pieces of "sun dried tomatoes" would be - if putting in a salad I would probably cut the large pieces up anyway, if using in a soup or something they get soaked and expand. Is there some issue with size that I'm missing?

    The other question is about over-drying - if they end up really hard and dry won't they reconstitute when I soak them? IOW, is there a long term (bad) effect of overdrying?

    By the way Jo-Ann, regarding the "trays", you've probable seen at your local grocery or convenience store those big things that come from the bakery. Each holds about 10 loaves of bread and they stack on each other with little metal legs so they don't squish the bread underneath. The holes are kind of big so my idea was to line the tray with some window screen.

    (Actually, now that I think of it, the screen might be the solution to the scorching in that it should distribute the heat more evenly. Hmm.... )

    And Please! both of you - do not consider my interminable questions as somehow doubting or challenging your knowledge and expertise. I know nothing at all, and everything someone says raises more questions. Eventually (historically) my questions tend to become meaningless in any practical sense - you should have seen the look on the lady when I asked her what kind of "-ose" maple syrup was (sucrose, fructose, lactose, glucose, etc.). But we have lots of local maple syrup and no local cane or beet sugar so I wanted to know if I could substitute maple for cane when canning peaches and pairs (also local.) And how relatively "sweet" were syrup from sugar vs syrup from maple, and did it matter?

    OK - sun's rising - time for me to get up too.

    Roger
     
  21. itlajfk

    itlajfk Member

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    I've never tried reconstituting the tomatoes in anything other than olive oil infused with raw garlic and other spices, but I'm sure you are right about reconstitution in other liquids. I can only speak from personal experience and I found that I did not like the taste of the tomatoes I had over dried as they seemed to be somewhat bitter tasting. The ones that were dried to a level comparable to say, a raisin, were much sweeter. I had never dried a tomato in my life until last year, so I'm no expert but I wonder if over drying does something to the sugar content of the tomato? Mind you, this was just picking them off the rack and testing them without trying to reconstitute, but if you have ever made jam, jelly, or candy of any kind, you know that once you've messed up that sugar thing (as in over-cooking it), there is no way to 'fix' it. I'm really thinking out loud here, so forgive me if I ramble!

    At the end of the day, I think it depends a lot on what you want to use them for. I use mine in salads, on pizzas, on bruschetta, stuff like that, where the dried tomato is the star rather than a supporting actor (Oscars tomorrow night, couldn't help myself!). In a soup or sauce, you probably would not notice that loss of sweetness.

    Re your screens - if you can, try and get some kind of 'coated' screening, versus plain old aluminum or metal. The Excalibur screens are coated with something or they may just be plastic, I don't know, but they wash up really well without scouring, and don't rust. As your fruit/vegs dry, they release sugar (gee, am I answering my own question from the previous paragraph?) and they will stick. Metal screening will be a nightmare to keep clean, plus who knows what gunk is passing into your produce from the metal. In fact, I would recommend going to their site just to get some ideas for the dryer you are going to build. The scale may be smaller, but the principals are still good.

    No worries about offending with questions, but I'll be frank. I am no expert, just a person who researches extensively before I do anything. I find that works for me and is a lot cheaper in the long run! I enjoy the questions because it makes me think really hard about my methods and why I made decisions to do certain things the way I did. Just wait until you get into organic pest control....Yikes!

    Jo-Ann
     
  22. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Hi Jo-Ann - thanks for all thinking. I work through things much the same way. I had actually planned to use nylon screening (not very environmentally friendly, I know, but it should be pretty stable) but now that I think of it, I wonder if there is a stainless steel screen I could use. Should clean up well and last forever. Hmmm.

    As for the organic pest control, that will have to wait. First, I'm not growing the plants myself - I have a neighbour/farmer who will be doing that as a small part of his overall operation. Since it's his livelihood, I have to respect his need to make a profit and the potential for crop loss may make him too nervous, at least until he sees how well the heirloom varieties produce. I've already promised him that I will buy whatever (and I will also make sure he gets enough to justify the work and field space) and I know he will go for the least intrusive pest control possible - his kids eat the food too. However, I can't in conscience ask him to use only organic controls.

    I've offered to go up to his stand when the crop comes in to set up a table and give out samples. I'm hoping the entire experience is enough of a success that he'll want to get more into it as the years go on.

    Anyway, thanks for your messages - it's nice to hear someone else think aloud about the same issues.

    Roger
     
  23. bob 2

    bob 2 Active Member

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    Roger , I sense your heart is in the right place and I am now accustomed to your due diligence in getting to the bottom of things before you make a decision.

    I would ask you to beg, borrrow or buy a copy of this well written information related to gardening before you find yourself mired in one of the three solitudes and unable to either enjoy gardening or profit from the experience.

    http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=2&p=59480&cat=2,46154,46144

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  24. Roger Priddle

    Roger Priddle Member

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    Hi Bob - thanks for your note. yeah, I do a lot of research. You should have seen me the first time I put up wallpaper - having read all the stuff, chosen and bought the wallpaper, it STILL took me 2.5 hours to hang the first strip<grin>. Mind you, in the next 2 days I did 3 rooms!

    Thanks for the recommendation for the book - I'll look for it or order it. However, since it's my neighbour/farmer who will be doing the actual growing and since his livelihood depends of the success of his crops, it's him I have to convince. He agrees in principle, just nervous... It goes against everything that society and Monsanto have been teaching him all these years.

    Anyway, thanks again for the suggestion.

    Roger
     

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