hardy citrus

Discussion in 'Citrus' started by Gerry Morgan, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    I have a hardy pomello that is about 10ft tall and has survived the last 10 years growing outside without any protection whatsovever. I think that it would be valuable as a source of cuttings for root stock or further experimentation.
    I would be happy to supply cuttings especially if I could make a trade for something interesting.

    Gerry Morgan
     
  2. Gregn

    Gregn Active Member 10 Years

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    Gerry, did you get your plant from Bob Duncan at Fruit trees and More? Could you share some photos? Has your tee fruited? If so, how did it taste? What size is the fruit?

    Thanks,

    Greg
     
  3. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    Yes. Bob gave me a tiny plant 10 years ago. I will get you some pictures and post them for you to see. I reccently reconnected with Bob and he gave me a call the other day. He said his fruited but did not taste great. I think that marmalade is the only thing you can do or use it as root stock for something else. I have a bunch of citrus trials under way and I think I will thy to use it as root stock for some of the potential cadidates I have been babying for a few years.

    It seems that it is not too tricky to start some test plants and then graft. I have the root stock and the graft stock...just need to get going with it.
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Homegrown Citrus that has endured years
    of cold in your area is a great source for
    local grown Citrus as a rootstock. Years
    ago the UC Riverside Experimental Station
    used Pomelo as a rootstock on a variety
    of Citrus. A couple of Pomelo are cited
    in EFFECT OF THE ROOTSTOCK ON THE
    COMPOSITION OF CITRUS TREES AND
    FRUIT
    - A.R.C. Haas, 1947 in some of
    the C.E.S. rootstock to scion nutrient
    uptake, leaf and peel analysis, field
    study trials.

    Jim
     
  5. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    Thanks for the information. I think last winter was the acid test for most sensitive plants. The pomello went through without any damage. It was not protected from the snow and we had a lot of it. It stayed green throughout the winter as usual. One of the things that I have observed about other citrus that I am trying is that they seem to be OK with the cold but if it snows and the snow sticks to the leaves, the result is not good. The pomello seems to be the exception.

    The pomello is big enough that it could provide a lot of material for some experimentation. I will try to root some this year but I don't have a lot of confidence in my propagation ability or my grafting skills. Both are pretty hit and miss. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.

    I also have a korean tangerine that seems to hold up well in the winter. It is only 45cm tall so it is a bit too early to tell
     
  6. Gregn

    Gregn Active Member 10 Years

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    Gerry, I spoke to Bob the other day - he mentioned you and your tree - and something about dinner! I have an extensive collection of citrus (around 30 varieties) and have supplied Bob with a number of very rare 'hardy' citrus cuttings. I think he has been successful in budding all of them. The problem is he is the pro and I am not :) I have not attempted much in the way of propagation - yet. It would be nice to see some pics of your tree. I need to get going and grow some rootstock.

    Greg
     
  7. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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  8. Gregn

    Gregn Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks, what you have is a Dunstan Citrumelo - at least that it is what i believe it to be. According to my information it is a cross between a grapefruit and a trifoliate orange. However Bob Duncan believes it to be a pomello and a trifoliate orange.
    As well as the variety you have, I have a ciclem which is a citrumelo and a clementine (???), another seedling (2) citrumelos which look quite different to each other, a Morton citrange which is a sweet orange crossed with a trifoliate orange. I am hopeful that all of these will be suitable for our climate (more my climate :) given some years under their belt. I also have a pomello - trifoliate cross which looks quite different than Bobs Dunstan citrumelo.
    I am most hopeful of my Sudachi - which is full breed citrus and apparently very cold hardy. Fruit is similar in size and shape and taste of a key lime. The fruit should be ready for harvest by the end of September in our area.
     
  9. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    Thanks...
    Either way, it is nice to know. I planted a trifoliate and it is not anywhere near as tough as this apparent cross.
    I started dozens of other types and have 4 that have survived the winter with a little protection. The other 4 are currently in pots. They were on a covered deck. All of those were grown from seed, I cannot confirm what any of them are as I did not harvest the seed.

    I was also given a 'Korean tengerine and it seems quite tough. I really appreciate you helping me identify it.
     
  10. Gregn

    Gregn Active Member 10 Years

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    Gerry, the trifoliate orange is the hardiest of all. Though not a true citrus it is a cousin of the citrus family and is compatible with most. The deal with the Poncirus trifoliata is that it is a deciduous tree - citrus is not deciduous. So during the winter my trifoliate is leafless. This will also carry over on some of the cross breeds if the weather conditions get very cold. They characteristically tend to start their growth after the spring equinox. The trifoliate orange is hardy to around -25 to -28 c. It has very large thorns 2 to 3 inches long in some cases.
    Could you post a close up photo of your trees leaves?

    Thanks, Greg
     
  11. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Are we actually talking about a Pomelo (Citrus Grandis) = Grapefruit. If so, Gerry, was your tree started as a seedling? The reason I ask, is because seedling grapefruits are MUCH hardier against the cold, than are grafted grapefruits. - Millet (1,268-)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  12. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    Here are some of the pictures. The pomello leaf, poncisus trifoliata. And some mystry plants that seem to be winter hardy.
     

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  13. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    Yes. Most of what I have was started from seed with the exception of the korean tangerine and the plant that Bob gave me. Large leafed one is six feet high and has leaves that are about 6 inch long with pretty extreme thorns. All of these plants wintered over without 'temperature' protection
     
  14. Millet

    Millet Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Gerry, I would be interested to know what was the lowest temperature that your grapefruit survived, and more importantly, for how many hours at this temperature? Since you evidently know Gregn of North Vancouver, you probably have heard of the Croxton Grapefruit, in South Carolina. It is a large, and quite old seedling Grapefruit tree that has survived many cold nights. This winter it made it through a night of 14F (-10C). - Millet (1,268-)
     
  15. Gregn

    Gregn Active Member 10 Years

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    Gerry, in your photos which one is your 'hardy pomello' ? If it is your first photo on the top left then it is not definitely not a Dunstan citrumelo - possibly a ichang papeda derivative??? The petiole is not as big as I would expect on a grapefruit or pomello... Bob may help you in identifying your tree. Very interesting for sure. I will have to contact you next time I am on the Island.

    I would like to hear what others think?

    Greg
     
  16. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    I would be pleased to have you come for a visit. What ever it is, it is the toughest plant in it's category that I have and I am pretty sure it would make very good rootstock for some experimentation.
     
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    It is true that some Citrus researchers felt
    that some of the Pomelo were indeed Citrus
    grandis
    with tree and fruit characteristics
    similar to Grapefruit - Citrus paradisi. One
    tree that caused some confusion was the
    Duncan pomelo in comparison to the old
    venerable Duncan grapefruit from Florida.
    One tree had a tendency to set its fruit
    in clusters and the other produced fruit
    singly. Both had winged petioles but
    one trees wings were consistently larger
    in size (flared out more), albeit on a
    smaller sized leaf, than the other. Yes,
    there were leaves from both trees in
    which the petioles were too slender
    with no flare to call a winged petiole
    but were felt to be a bi-leaf by some
    other people that were familiar with
    both plants.

    In Citrus we have proposed hybrid
    trees that we assume were hybrids
    but really cannot explain why they
    are what they are from what we
    see of them. Tangors were felt
    have Orange tree growth characteristics
    but the fruit may be closer to appearing
    like and tasting much closer to a
    Mandarin than an Orange. Thus
    we assume that a Tangor is a hybrid
    from both an Orange and a Mandarin.
    We need to know seed parents and
    perhaps pollen parents when we want
    to state with some certainty that one
    variety is a hybrid and the other is a
    natural occurring variant form.

    In the olden days some trees came
    into the US as one name from the
    Orient as budded trees, while other
    trees of the same name came into
    the US as seed. Funny things happen
    along the way when we grow these
    plants on feeling that both trees that
    came in with the same name are the
    same plant to us later. Then some
    of us will take seed from the fruit
    of the budded trees and compare
    those trees with the trees that
    originally came in as seed and
    then compare them to see if we
    still feel that the budded tree,
    seedling offspring are the same
    as the trees grown from seed that
    first came in along with the budded
    trees. Now, we are somewhat
    into how a Pomelo and a Pummelo
    may differ. One thing that some
    researchers felt about the Pummelo
    was that the Pummelo is not
    natural occurring, whereas the
    olden day researchers felt the
    Pomelo which principally came
    in as seed were or probably
    were natural in that they came
    in as seed from areas that had
    little or no history of propagating
    their trees by budding or grafting
    but instead were felt to be from
    rooted cutting or seedling parent
    plants. Some Pomelo did come
    in as seed from parent plants we
    assume were also not ever budded
    or grafted, which meant there was a
    much stronger chance that the seed
    from the rooted cutting parent trees
    and from the seed bearing trees
    that were seedlings themselves were
    closer to being truer than the seed
    individuals that came about from
    grafted and budded plants. This
    whole issue was a great debate
    within the C.E.S. for a number of
    years in that upon physical traits
    some of the seedlings from budded
    and grafted trees may not look the
    same as seedling trees that had
    originally come into their possession
    as seed. We still have this same
    debate to an extent with the Etrog
    in that some of us know, or at least
    have seen some trees that did
    come into the US from budded or
    grafted trees that do not appear
    over time exactly the same as
    other seedling trees that came
    into the same region as seed
    do. I've seen a budded Sweet
    Citron grown side by side next
    to the parent plant that came
    into the Los Angeles area
    from imported seed and felt
    the two trees were not quite
    the same in appearance and
    in fruit quality. I felt that the
    seedling parent tree on its
    own roots yielded consistently
    better quality fruit but that
    was just my opinion at the
    time as well as the opinion
    of the owner of both trees.
    As a matter of fact the C.E.S.
    performed the budding of the
    second tree in trade for wood.
    The problem as we go back
    in now to learn of this clone
    was that the C.E.S. trees
    all originated with a rootstock
    parent and the precursor tree
    was left on its own roots. We
    did have the ability to compare
    the two trees, the synthetic
    offspring from the original.
    Now, we assume the synthetic
    individuals are pure line plants
    when they never were to begin
    with. Read up on Chandler
    pummelo and is the Chandler
    the same as the parent plant
    that yielded the seed. Was
    it possible for a Pummelo to
    come about from a Pomelo
    parent? The answer was yes.
    What was the seed parent
    for the parent line attributed
    to Captain Shaddock a Pomelo?
    Was there ever a Shaddock
    pomelo at one time and how
    is the Shaddock different from
    the Lemon shaddock? We
    rely on the books and reference
    articles to tell us but what is
    not always told is who knows
    the plants by actually growing
    them or being around people
    that had, were or still are
    growing them. How did we
    louse these plants up by
    budding and grafting them
    as soon as they came into
    various research stations?
    At the time this was not
    even an issue as it was
    better to have wood from
    the plant and try to save
    it and later perpetuate it
    rather than not have the
    plant at all. You bet, in
    hindsight it would have
    been better to have seed
    come in but this was not
    always possible but in
    the early 20th century
    days of Citrus research,
    seed was preferred but
    seed was not always
    obtainable. The finder
    of the tree did not always
    wait for the fruit to develop
    but instead sent wood in
    to be propagated. Then
    did we ever go back in
    and see if the budded
    trees in germplasm are
    the same as the parent
    tree we got the budwood
    from? In most cases we
    did not do a follow up to
    see if the trees were
    different or the same.
    Even today people ask
    for wood from others
    as if they are entitled
    to have some, just
    because someone
    else has a tree they
    do not have. If the
    parent tree was on
    its own roots and
    has a history of being
    on its own roots it
    would be better to
    “beg, borrow or steal”
    the seed from non
    budded or non grafted
    plants. Even with
    the six Italian lemons
    we have, one of which
    is of Spanish origin and
    two of them are Sicilian,
    we cannot guarantee the
    seed from those budded
    plants will yield true to
    the parent trees and fruit
    but we can pretty well
    guarantee the seed grown
    on from the fruit from
    those trees will be Lemons.

    If the Pomelo in question
    came about from seed
    and the parent plant also
    came about from seed
    then knowing the source
    of Mr. Duncan’s plant
    might help this mystery.
    The only real reason why
    the Pomelo was lumped
    in with Pummelo, later all
    varieties, forms and hybrids
    were called Pummelo was
    that the origins of the
    Pomelo in the C.E.S.
    and later the CRC could
    not be verified. Whereas
    more was known of the
    later day Pummelos and
    how some of them came
    about. It is true that some
    of the Pummelos were felt
    to be a Grapefruit as Mr.
    Hodgson refers to in the
    Horticultural Varieties
    of Citrus
    book from the
    Mr. Webber research.
    What was not told is that
    Mr. Webber considered
    Citrus grandis members
    to be of Grapefruit “type”
    origin. Which partially
    explains why Mr. Haas
    in his article refers to the
    Duncan pomelo as a
    Pomelo as the C.E.S.
    did not feel their plant was
    the same as the venerable
    and better known Florida
    Duncan grapefruit. What
    was referred to as Duncan
    pomelo years ago, today,
    we, not all of us collectively
    however, would consider it
    to be a pummelo [rightfully
    so in my view] and would
    not necessarily consider it
    to be a Grapefruit or to have
    come about from Grapefruit
    origin either [in the matter
    of the Duncan pomelo it
    probably did come about
    from the Duncan grapefruit].
    Unlike the Chandler pummelo
    in that the pollen parent was
    Siamese Pink and the seed
    bearing parent was Siamese
    Sweet - no real Grapefruit blood
    in the Chandler pummelo that
    we know of with certainty.
    Ergo, the Chandler cannot
    be considered a Grapefruit
    with no known Grapefruit
    parentage or heritage. Thus
    Pummelo and Grapefruit
    are not considered the same,
    similar yes, some varieties
    are indeed hybrids of Pomelo,
    Pummelo and Grapefruit but
    Pummelo are still classed
    differently because of the
    physiological and morphological
    differences with the much
    more widely studied and
    better known Grapefruit.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  18. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    That is a lot of information!!! Thanks. I am still not sure how to key out what I have to get a proper identification. Maybe it is not important if all that it is used for is root stock for grafting. I sure wish it would fruit so I can tell what it is... i guess even then it would not be definative.
     
  19. Laaz

    Laaz Active Member 10 Years

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    The first photo is of a Ichang Lemon or hybrid of it, not a Pumello. Notice the serrated edges on the leaf and pointed leaf tip.

    Pumello leaf attached.
     

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  20. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I'm just 70 miles up island from you in Lantzville, a small town immediately north of Nanaimo.
    I have a small selection of hadry citrus on the go and this seems to be a challenge and not for the unattentive gardener. Plenty to learn and many who post here are some of the best for advise and info. Seems like another aspect of gardening to get hooked on.

    Cheers, Barrie.
     
  21. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    There is almost no question that the pumello pictured on the right is a match with what I have. Thanks

    Now if only I could get some fruit off of it to try! (smile)
     
  22. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    If you are ever down this way...pop in and we can compare notes!
     
  23. LPN

    LPN Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Likewise Gerry. You can always PM me here. I'd like to get over to Bob Duncans place again sometime too.

    Cheers, LPN (Barrie).
     
  24. The Hollyberry Lady

    The Hollyberry Lady New Member

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    What a gorgeous specimen, Gerry Morgan!

    : O
     
  25. Gerry Morgan

    Gerry Morgan Member

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    thnx
    There is a little bit of information about the Morningside Garden at www.moringsideband.com
    We have just finished the picking the figs and drying them and now we are on to the ziziphus. (chinese jubejube) We have a huge crop from our tree this year.
     

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