I have a hardy pomello that is about 10ft tall and has survived the last 10 years growing outside without any protection whatsovever. I think that it would be valuable as a source of cuttings for root stock or further experimentation. I would be happy to supply cuttings especially if I could make a trade for something interesting. Gerry Morgan
Gerry, did you get your plant from Bob Duncan at Fruit trees and More? Could you share some photos? Has your tee fruited? If so, how did it taste? What size is the fruit? Thanks, Greg
Yes. Bob gave me a tiny plant 10 years ago. I will get you some pictures and post them for you to see. I reccently reconnected with Bob and he gave me a call the other day. He said his fruited but did not taste great. I think that marmalade is the only thing you can do or use it as root stock for something else. I have a bunch of citrus trials under way and I think I will thy to use it as root stock for some of the potential cadidates I have been babying for a few years. It seems that it is not too tricky to start some test plants and then graft. I have the root stock and the graft stock...just need to get going with it.
Homegrown Citrus that has endured years of cold in your area is a great source for local grown Citrus as a rootstock. Years ago the UC Riverside Experimental Station used Pomelo as a rootstock on a variety of Citrus. A couple of Pomelo are cited in EFFECT OF THE ROOTSTOCK ON THE COMPOSITION OF CITRUS TREES AND FRUIT - A.R.C. Haas, 1947 in some of the C.E.S. rootstock to scion nutrient uptake, leaf and peel analysis, field study trials. Jim
Thanks for the information. I think last winter was the acid test for most sensitive plants. The pomello went through without any damage. It was not protected from the snow and we had a lot of it. It stayed green throughout the winter as usual. One of the things that I have observed about other citrus that I am trying is that they seem to be OK with the cold but if it snows and the snow sticks to the leaves, the result is not good. The pomello seems to be the exception. The pomello is big enough that it could provide a lot of material for some experimentation. I will try to root some this year but I don't have a lot of confidence in my propagation ability or my grafting skills. Both are pretty hit and miss. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. I also have a korean tangerine that seems to hold up well in the winter. It is only 45cm tall so it is a bit too early to tell
Gerry, I spoke to Bob the other day - he mentioned you and your tree - and something about dinner! I have an extensive collection of citrus (around 30 varieties) and have supplied Bob with a number of very rare 'hardy' citrus cuttings. I think he has been successful in budding all of them. The problem is he is the pro and I am not :) I have not attempted much in the way of propagation - yet. It would be nice to see some pics of your tree. I need to get going and grow some rootstock. Greg
Greg, Here is the picture you requested http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/images/attach/jpg.gif If you are unable to retrieve it, I will have to post it to you directly.
Thanks, what you have is a Dunstan Citrumelo - at least that it is what i believe it to be. According to my information it is a cross between a grapefruit and a trifoliate orange. However Bob Duncan believes it to be a pomello and a trifoliate orange. As well as the variety you have, I have a ciclem which is a citrumelo and a clementine (???), another seedling (2) citrumelos which look quite different to each other, a Morton citrange which is a sweet orange crossed with a trifoliate orange. I am hopeful that all of these will be suitable for our climate (more my climate :) given some years under their belt. I also have a pomello - trifoliate cross which looks quite different than Bobs Dunstan citrumelo. I am most hopeful of my Sudachi - which is full breed citrus and apparently very cold hardy. Fruit is similar in size and shape and taste of a key lime. The fruit should be ready for harvest by the end of September in our area.
Thanks... Either way, it is nice to know. I planted a trifoliate and it is not anywhere near as tough as this apparent cross. I started dozens of other types and have 4 that have survived the winter with a little protection. The other 4 are currently in pots. They were on a covered deck. All of those were grown from seed, I cannot confirm what any of them are as I did not harvest the seed. I was also given a 'Korean tengerine and it seems quite tough. I really appreciate you helping me identify it.
Gerry, the trifoliate orange is the hardiest of all. Though not a true citrus it is a cousin of the citrus family and is compatible with most. The deal with the Poncirus trifoliata is that it is a deciduous tree - citrus is not deciduous. So during the winter my trifoliate is leafless. This will also carry over on some of the cross breeds if the weather conditions get very cold. They characteristically tend to start their growth after the spring equinox. The trifoliate orange is hardy to around -25 to -28 c. It has very large thorns 2 to 3 inches long in some cases. Could you post a close up photo of your trees leaves? Thanks, Greg
Are we actually talking about a Pomelo (Citrus Grandis) = Grapefruit. If so, Gerry, was your tree started as a seedling? The reason I ask, is because seedling grapefruits are MUCH hardier against the cold, than are grafted grapefruits. - Millet (1,268-)
Here are some of the pictures. The pomello leaf, poncisus trifoliata. And some mystry plants that seem to be winter hardy.
Yes. Most of what I have was started from seed with the exception of the korean tangerine and the plant that Bob gave me. Large leafed one is six feet high and has leaves that are about 6 inch long with pretty extreme thorns. All of these plants wintered over without 'temperature' protection
Gerry, I would be interested to know what was the lowest temperature that your grapefruit survived, and more importantly, for how many hours at this temperature? Since you evidently know Gregn of North Vancouver, you probably have heard of the Croxton Grapefruit, in South Carolina. It is a large, and quite old seedling Grapefruit tree that has survived many cold nights. This winter it made it through a night of 14F (-10C). - Millet (1,268-)
Gerry, in your photos which one is your 'hardy pomello' ? If it is your first photo on the top left then it is not definitely not a Dunstan citrumelo - possibly a ichang papeda derivative??? The petiole is not as big as I would expect on a grapefruit or pomello... Bob may help you in identifying your tree. Very interesting for sure. I will have to contact you next time I am on the Island. I would like to hear what others think? Greg
I would be pleased to have you come for a visit. What ever it is, it is the toughest plant in it's category that I have and I am pretty sure it would make very good rootstock for some experimentation.
It is true that some Citrus researchers felt that some of the Pomelo were indeed Citrus grandis with tree and fruit characteristics similar to Grapefruit - Citrus paradisi. One tree that caused some confusion was the Duncan pomelo in comparison to the old venerable Duncan grapefruit from Florida. One tree had a tendency to set its fruit in clusters and the other produced fruit singly. Both had winged petioles but one trees wings were consistently larger in size (flared out more), albeit on a smaller sized leaf, than the other. Yes, there were leaves from both trees in which the petioles were too slender with no flare to call a winged petiole but were felt to be a bi-leaf by some other people that were familiar with both plants. In Citrus we have proposed hybrid trees that we assume were hybrids but really cannot explain why they are what they are from what we see of them. Tangors were felt have Orange tree growth characteristics but the fruit may be closer to appearing like and tasting much closer to a Mandarin than an Orange. Thus we assume that a Tangor is a hybrid from both an Orange and a Mandarin. We need to know seed parents and perhaps pollen parents when we want to state with some certainty that one variety is a hybrid and the other is a natural occurring variant form. In the olden days some trees came into the US as one name from the Orient as budded trees, while other trees of the same name came into the US as seed. Funny things happen along the way when we grow these plants on feeling that both trees that came in with the same name are the same plant to us later. Then some of us will take seed from the fruit of the budded trees and compare those trees with the trees that originally came in as seed and then compare them to see if we still feel that the budded tree, seedling offspring are the same as the trees grown from seed that first came in along with the budded trees. Now, we are somewhat into how a Pomelo and a Pummelo may differ. One thing that some researchers felt about the Pummelo was that the Pummelo is not natural occurring, whereas the olden day researchers felt the Pomelo which principally came in as seed were or probably were natural in that they came in as seed from areas that had little or no history of propagating their trees by budding or grafting but instead were felt to be from rooted cutting or seedling parent plants. Some Pomelo did come in as seed from parent plants we assume were also not ever budded or grafted, which meant there was a much stronger chance that the seed from the rooted cutting parent trees and from the seed bearing trees that were seedlings themselves were closer to being truer than the seed individuals that came about from grafted and budded plants. This whole issue was a great debate within the C.E.S. for a number of years in that upon physical traits some of the seedlings from budded and grafted trees may not look the same as seedling trees that had originally come into their possession as seed. We still have this same debate to an extent with the Etrog in that some of us know, or at least have seen some trees that did come into the US from budded or grafted trees that do not appear over time exactly the same as other seedling trees that came into the same region as seed do. I've seen a budded Sweet Citron grown side by side next to the parent plant that came into the Los Angeles area from imported seed and felt the two trees were not quite the same in appearance and in fruit quality. I felt that the seedling parent tree on its own roots yielded consistently better quality fruit but that was just my opinion at the time as well as the opinion of the owner of both trees. As a matter of fact the C.E.S. performed the budding of the second tree in trade for wood. The problem as we go back in now to learn of this clone was that the C.E.S. trees all originated with a rootstock parent and the precursor tree was left on its own roots. We did have the ability to compare the two trees, the synthetic offspring from the original. Now, we assume the synthetic individuals are pure line plants when they never were to begin with. Read up on Chandler pummelo and is the Chandler the same as the parent plant that yielded the seed. Was it possible for a Pummelo to come about from a Pomelo parent? The answer was yes. What was the seed parent for the parent line attributed to Captain Shaddock a Pomelo? Was there ever a Shaddock pomelo at one time and how is the Shaddock different from the Lemon shaddock? We rely on the books and reference articles to tell us but what is not always told is who knows the plants by actually growing them or being around people that had, were or still are growing them. How did we louse these plants up by budding and grafting them as soon as they came into various research stations? At the time this was not even an issue as it was better to have wood from the plant and try to save it and later perpetuate it rather than not have the plant at all. You bet, in hindsight it would have been better to have seed come in but this was not always possible but in the early 20th century days of Citrus research, seed was preferred but seed was not always obtainable. The finder of the tree did not always wait for the fruit to develop but instead sent wood in to be propagated. Then did we ever go back in and see if the budded trees in germplasm are the same as the parent tree we got the budwood from? In most cases we did not do a follow up to see if the trees were different or the same. Even today people ask for wood from others as if they are entitled to have some, just because someone else has a tree they do not have. If the parent tree was on its own roots and has a history of being on its own roots it would be better to “beg, borrow or steal” the seed from non budded or non grafted plants. Even with the six Italian lemons we have, one of which is of Spanish origin and two of them are Sicilian, we cannot guarantee the seed from those budded plants will yield true to the parent trees and fruit but we can pretty well guarantee the seed grown on from the fruit from those trees will be Lemons. If the Pomelo in question came about from seed and the parent plant also came about from seed then knowing the source of Mr. Duncan’s plant might help this mystery. The only real reason why the Pomelo was lumped in with Pummelo, later all varieties, forms and hybrids were called Pummelo was that the origins of the Pomelo in the C.E.S. and later the CRC could not be verified. Whereas more was known of the later day Pummelos and how some of them came about. It is true that some of the Pummelos were felt to be a Grapefruit as Mr. Hodgson refers to in the Horticultural Varieties of Citrus book from the Mr. Webber research. What was not told is that Mr. Webber considered Citrus grandis members to be of Grapefruit “type” origin. Which partially explains why Mr. Haas in his article refers to the Duncan pomelo as a Pomelo as the C.E.S. did not feel their plant was the same as the venerable and better known Florida Duncan grapefruit. What was referred to as Duncan pomelo years ago, today, we, not all of us collectively however, would consider it to be a pummelo [rightfully so in my view] and would not necessarily consider it to be a Grapefruit or to have come about from Grapefruit origin either [in the matter of the Duncan pomelo it probably did come about from the Duncan grapefruit]. Unlike the Chandler pummelo in that the pollen parent was Siamese Pink and the seed bearing parent was Siamese Sweet - no real Grapefruit blood in the Chandler pummelo that we know of with certainty. Ergo, the Chandler cannot be considered a Grapefruit with no known Grapefruit parentage or heritage. Thus Pummelo and Grapefruit are not considered the same, similar yes, some varieties are indeed hybrids of Pomelo, Pummelo and Grapefruit but Pummelo are still classed differently because of the physiological and morphological differences with the much more widely studied and better known Grapefruit. Jim
That is a lot of information!!! Thanks. I am still not sure how to key out what I have to get a proper identification. Maybe it is not important if all that it is used for is root stock for grafting. I sure wish it would fruit so I can tell what it is... i guess even then it would not be definative.
The first photo is of a Ichang Lemon or hybrid of it, not a Pumello. Notice the serrated edges on the leaf and pointed leaf tip. Pumello leaf attached.
I'm just 70 miles up island from you in Lantzville, a small town immediately north of Nanaimo. I have a small selection of hadry citrus on the go and this seems to be a challenge and not for the unattentive gardener. Plenty to learn and many who post here are some of the best for advise and info. Seems like another aspect of gardening to get hooked on. Cheers, Barrie.
There is almost no question that the pumello pictured on the right is a match with what I have. Thanks Now if only I could get some fruit off of it to try! (smile)
Likewise Gerry. You can always PM me here. I'd like to get over to Bob Duncans place again sometime too. Cheers, LPN (Barrie).
thnx There is a little bit of information about the Morningside Garden at www.moringsideband.com We have just finished the picking the figs and drying them and now we are on to the ziziphus. (chinese jubejube) We have a huge crop from our tree this year.