Growing JM in Vietnam

Discussion in 'Maples' started by kalod, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Hi friends,

    I'm a newbie in growing JM, in Vietnam.

    I got some seeds from one of my friend, he already made stratification and gave me.
    I sow seeds after found that it sprouted out.

    Here are some photos.
    May I call it Acer Palmatum var.Dissectum?
    I came across some web and found that they called it Acer Amoneum Baldsmith.

    Can anybody advise me which is correct?
    What should I do with it for next season?
    Here winter's lowest 50F, it produced new flush after I used bulb, cause after 2 real leaves, I found it stayed still :D.

    Many thanks in advance!
     

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  2. Atapi

    Atapi Well-Known Member

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    Hi Kalod,

    It is very difficult to name your new seedling if you don't know where your friend is getting the seed from i.e. a JM tree or buying seeds on line or from someone else. Even if you know which tree the seed came from, it is still not 100% sure that you can name the young one after the mother tree if the mother is a grafted tree.

    From the pics, it looks like you have a red Acer palmatum on the dissectum side but there is almost 100 of cultivar in the dissectum itself. So you can call it: AP- red dissectum or red lace-leaf for now until you find out more details about the seed. Or you can try your best to match up the leaf that you have with some listed on the web to see if you can come close to any but it is still a difficult chore to name it correctly and sometimes you may have to observe it throughout the year to see what the leaf color is changing in order to name it properly.

    If you are in Hanoi, perhaps you may be able to grow JM but keep in mind it will need to stay in a shade during the summer when the temp get too hot over there especially for the dissectum type, their leaves are not as tough as the other type.
    I used to live in South VN (Saigon) and it is too hot to grow JM there. Remember, we are in a tropical country where JM is not quite suitable for it. But i am interested to see how the plant will thrive in north VN. JM is a slow growing tree esp. with the dissectum. Some other JM cultivars will grow faster, taller in a warm climate like (Texas). I gave a few to my brother in Texas to try and he told me it doesn't grow well due to the heat there.

    You can research on this forum or on the web for the appropriate type that will thrive in the warm climate and you also can google for care & feed for your JM-dissectum seedlings.

    Best of luck, Steven
     
  3. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Hello Kalod.I'm afraid as it's a seedling you cannot give it the name 'Baldsmith' even if it came from a 'Baldsmith' plant.Seedlings are never 100% identical to the parent even if they look the same.However there's nothing stopping you calling it anything you like.'Baldsmith' is a dissectum and not an amoneum :)
     
  4. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Thanks Steven,

    Glad to know that you did have time in Saigon of Vietnam.

    Actullay for these seeds, the origin is from CA,USA. My friend got seeds from his Vietnamese bonsai friend there in CA, then, he stratified it in peatmoss ziplock, without initial soaking, in refrigerator. After 90 days, when seeds sprouted, he gave me to practice sowing.
    But, he lost contact with his CA friend, and can't find the name of the seeds (as you know, for Vietnam now, we are rather new to JM)
    My friend has not good command of English, so I should be checking to find the most approriate way to develope these Dissectum.

    I did read some information about AP Dissectum type, but not many mentioned about my climate condition here in North VN.

    Thanks for your nice advice about summer care, I will have my careful look at it this 2015 to find its progression in my garden. I develope my bonsai garden on the roof :D.
    Later with more updated info, hope to seek more of your advice.

    Thanks/Kalod
     
  5. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Hi Houzi,

    Thanks.
    May I call it "Kalod"? kaka, joking..

    As I crosscheck on facebook of one Japanese artist, Mr.Masayoshi Yano, who created many kinds of JM, I found some photos he uploaded same as my JM leaves.
    There are 2 names for this kind:
    A.Amoenum"Baldsmith"
    A.Amoenum"Goshiki Shidare"
    Hence, that's why feeling so confused :D
     
  6. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hello Kalod, and welcome to the forum. Maybe I can clarify a few things. Taxonomy, can get very complicated and not everyone always agrees what to call things; but here are a couple of things everyone does agree on.

    - A named cultivar, like 'Baldsmith' etc, is a _single plant_ and anything that carries the same same is a _clone_ of the same plant, either propagated by grafting, rooting a cutting or the like. A seedling from a cultivar is not named the same as the cultivar, no matter how much it may resemble the parent, because genetically it is a different plant.

    - Young Japanese Maples change a lot during the first several years. The leaf form of a seedling in the first year may not remain true in subsequent years.

    This latter point said, it looks like you have a "dissectum form" seedling, and perhaps more often than not it will retain that characteristic to a greater or lesser extent. As such it would be referred to as Acer palmatum f. dissectum for many western botanists, and perhaps Acer matsumurae (f. dissectum) by some Japanese botanists including Yano. Some people would call it Acer dissectum (here in France for example) or even simply Acer palmatum (dissectum group).

    As for me, if it were my seedling (and I do get many like this) I'd label it A palmatum f dissectum (?) and wait and see what it does.

    But for sure, it isn't either 'Baldsmith' or any other named cultivar.

    Note that the amoenum group (we sometimes write Acer palmatum subsp amoenum), has more shallowly cut lobes than the other subspecies. Do an image search on "osakazuki" to see an example.

    HTH,

    -E
     
  7. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Many thanks Emery,

    Now I got much clearer info about this.
    So, when people only write Acer Amoenum, we should understand that it's Acer Palmatum subsp amoenum.
    for this time being, I should stay to call my seedlings as Acer palmatum var.dissectum, rite?

    I will follow up with my seedlings' developement and find out how it react in my climate.
    I was advised by one of my bonsai friend who living in USA that it should be better I get used to Trident Maple and Acer Palmatum green. However, in Hanoi (Northern Vietnam), I know one guy growing many kinds of JM. That's why, as a bonsai enthusiast, I really hope to get more and more species to grow and train it here.
    It crossed my mind that perhaps in my climate, some cultivars will become new cultivars :D.

    I do feel like Dissectum. Per your message, may I ask if you have many seeds of this variety? As you know, to cultivate new plant in Vietnam, the best way for us is to get seeds, cause we face many rules in importing plants.
    Many thanks in advance!
     
  8. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Kalod,

    Just remember that not everyone agrees about naming! :) But there are usually several "schools of thought," so it's not total anarchy!

    I think you might well be able to grow Japanese and other maples in your climate, if it gets down to 50F in winter that will enable the tree to have a dormant period. (They do need to have a couple of months minimum of rest without any leaves in order to survive in the long term.)

    As for seeds I don't personally have a lot of form dissectum seeds because Acer palmatum cultivars (note no capital letter 'p' on palmatum) aren't my principle interest in maples. (This said I'm planting a free standing hedge of them this winter, so I do like them a lot!) But the seeds are widely available online, for example the French "Semences du Puy" which is well regarded has them:

    http://www.semencesdupuy.com/fr/catalogsearch/result/?q=acer+palmatum+dissectum

    Happy growing, ;)

    -E
     
  9. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Elsewhere dormancy in temperate plants has been said to be accomplished by 39F - I am not sure 50F is low enough to provide what are called chilling hours in reference to fruit trees in particular. As for naming of cultivars there is a convention of woody plant cultivars being clonal but in practice this is not always the case. And cultivars of herbaceous plants that live only one year, are maintained by re-selection of seed stocks definitely do not exist as clones.

    Another point is where multiple clones of the same cultivar are known to be in cultivation or there are distinct cultivars with shared characters then the term Group is used - particularly in British references. Examples of each are Cedrus atlantica Glauca Group and Acer palmatum Dissectum Group.
     
  10. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Thank you Emery,

    At this stage, I still find my seedlings produce new leaves, cause my winter has 72F by day, 50F by night. Sunlight still available. Should I supply shade for 1 seedling, and no shade for another, to compare how they react overwinter?
     
  11. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Thank you Ron B,

    I will note this point and search more info to have a good approach.
    Can you also advise me any good nursery source to get seeds from USA?

    Many tks in adv!
     
  12. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    There might be some Old World seed houses you can use that might be geographically closer or otherwise more accessible - North American companies might be unable or unwilling to ship to your country. Try searching the name of the plant you want and then "price" to see what comes up online.
     
  13. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Thank you Ron B,

    For my A.P Dissectum seedlings, my friend in Vietnam got fresh seeds, then, put them in ziplock of peatmoss for stratification without soaking. Germination rate looks good.
    Now I got some A.P Matsumurae (Yama Momiji) from Japan, and during stratification for March sowing.
    Actually in Northern of Vietnam, normally high humidity, so, we adjust alittle bit when growing trees from temperate climate seeds.

    Thus, I also really hope to connect with friends who have big trees and seeds in Autumn, to get fresh seeds and experiment some ways to get new cultivars used to Vietnam climate. If online purchase, I dont know much about how online company keep their seeds before selling to me, it would make me something elsewhere to adjust my procedures of sowing.

    Hope you understand and further advise if possible.
     
  14. marymyers

    marymyers Active Member Maple Society

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    Dear Kalod,

    We just visited your beautiful country last September. It is wonderful that you are interested in growing Japanese Maples and I wish you much luck. You might look on E-bay for seeds. Also, check out MrMaple.com. They have maples that they are able to grow in the hot South USA climates. You could check out MrMaple on E-bay or on there website for ideas of heat tolerant maples. Many of the dissectum group of maples will take full sun in many climates. Good luck to you and congratulations on choosing such a beautiful tree to add to beautiful Viet Nam.

    Mary
     
  15. kalod

    kalod New Member Maple Society

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    Thank you Mary,

    Nice to hear that you had good time to Vietnam. Hope my country will have chance to welcome you again in the near future.
    Thanks for your nice wish and about Mr.Maple.com, I also got rather good info about range of cultivars I can choose to try training in Vietnam. However, for me to get trees into Vietnam, the best way is through someone who bring through airport custom as luggage. I will try. :D
     

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