Hey guys, havent posted up in a while, but i've a little query about one of my grapefruit trees. I have one tree that is about ten foot tall, its in doors and is left in my dining room, now, the situation is this. for the last few years, its been hitting the ceiling and i've had to prune it back now and again, the problem is, it has started to lean to one side, so i decided to use a little bit of rope and tie it back to its up right position (it relys on the rope now to stay up or else it will lean over) now, over the last two weeks, i have started to notice new growth coming from the trunk (?) there are two shoots coming out as you will see from the below pictures, do you guys think, if i was to cut off the top of the tree and let these two shoots grow, it would be worth doing? or is there a risk of killing the tree?? i have taken a few pictures on my phone, they're not the best but i hope you get the picture..
here is a picture of what i would like to do.. or kind of illustrating my point the blue lines indicate the new shoots and the red is where i think i should make the cut.. advice opionions please!!!!!
I would wait until the new growth has completed it's cycle. That could be a few months... or less... then I would cut, and replant in a smaller pot...
i see, but how do i know when the cycle is over? also, one of the existing branchs will at some stage block out the sunlight to one of the new shoots, this concerns me!
When the new growth has stopped, the tips and leaves are firm and not tender, and try turning the plant to give light to where it needs it?
cool, the reason turning isnt an option is because i have it tied up to a string at the moment, so turning is fiddly and stuff, would you say it would be harmful to go ahead and cut off the two mature branches now? also why would i need to use a smaller pot??
The citrus grows in cycles, when you have root growth, there is no new top/foliage growth... in your case, the foliage is spurting, and I believe that the plant is naturally trying to correct itself... therefore fiddling and turning may help the new growth... once it has stopped growing this new limb, cut to above the shoot.... and repot it as it will need to have a restart on it's balance between the foliage and the root ball...think of it as a new beginning for this citrus.... if you don't the plant will be physiologically unbalanced...
This illistrates the point, that planting a grapefruit tree from seed that is going to be container grown indoors, is the worst possible variety of citrus one can choose. Because a grapefruit's required maturity node count number is so high, a grapefruit tree can easily reach the ceiling before the required node is ever reached and the tree becomes mature. The side branches that have started growth on the lower portion of Oregato's tree trunk, will begin their growth at the same low node count number that an earlier branch at that spot would have had, so nothing is gained as far as any possibility of fruit production. Oregao can leave the branches alone, or cut them, but if they are left on the tree, they would provide some ornamental appearance. However, the tree will never mature and never fruit growing under the conditions it is presently subjected too. As far as maturity, and fruiting, it really does not matter which direction Oregato decides to take. With a tree that has so little in the way of foliage, you might as well leave the two branches attached. If Oregato ever wants fruit plant a Key Lime seed, or a mandarin seed, and harvest in 3-5 years. - Millet (1,444-)
Millet, thanks for the advice and information. if you were in my shoes, would i be right in saying that you would leave the tree as is? whats the best thing i can do? the reason i've left it in doors is because the weather outside would be too cold for this tree, i dont want to subject it to cold temperatures and have it die :( i inherited it (and 4 other similar plants) off my late grandmother and i want to look after them the best i can. any advice would be great, thanks
There are times I feel we could use an in the home container grown Citrus sub-forum. Rules that apply to outdoor container grown Citrus and in many instances with container greenhouse grown Citrus do not always apply to in the home container Citrus. What we have to guard against is seen in this and other seedling Grapefruit in this forum. We cannot allow or permit these trees to grow in the home unobstructed and let them reach such heights without adequate undergrowth. Who cares if the tree ever has bloomed or not, the tree has been telling us for some time that our method of choice of what we want from the tree and the trees response is not favorable at all to the tree. We are going to have to learn to rethink our approach to growing seedling Grapefruit in containers in the home. I have felt for some time we should forget about seeing any fruit on these trees for a number of years, not solely due to node count either as there are other factors that can determine when and how soon a Grapefruit will bear fruit. Also, I have felt that the white fleshed Grapefruit take longer to fruit in the home while grown in containers anyway but that supposition is only based on white to custard fleshed seedling Grapefruit I've helped with in the past. As opposed to some of the Texas pink and red fleshed container grown seedlings in the home and in a greenhouse as well. We are going to have to learn to treat and grow Grapefruit seedlings as if they are a bush, rather than try to grow them as an upright tree. We may have to instill some bushiness in our growth habits, rather than let these trees grow towards light and have them become 10 foot tall "string beans" with little to no undergrowth. We will have to learn how to either force these trees to become bushier by way of select pruning or we have to give these trees a whole lot more light than they are getting. If we go back to the olden day Sunset and Better Homes and Gardens magazines and see the Grapefruit trees in large pots and containers in the homes, along the Southern California Coastal areas, we can see just what these trees need and that is light coming into the homes in more than one direction. In some of the old pictures we can see light hitting no less than 3/4 of the entire tree from Western, Eastern and Southern exposures and along with that we also have ample ambient light hitting the tree from the North. We have almost the equivalent of 360 degree light. Whereas in most homes we may only get 90+ degree light and then wonder why our seedling Grapefruit never has bloomed for us. Grapefruit are not short day plants and we want to grow them in a home as such. I do feel that photoperiodism does indeed come into play for Grapefruit seedling trees in that when the tree wants to set flowers it can't as we do not provide enough light in the home for the tree to do it. The telltale sign to me is when we get some new growth but we do not see any flower formation. Grown outdoors we see the flower formation soon after we see the new growth appear and start to expand The lowest red mark is where I would cut the tree. The area of concern is now you will have to wait and see if the side shoots, that will surely expand through stem elongation, will also slow down in their rate of growth to also set nodes, so that you can have those side shoots also set some side shoots. Otherwise you may have to pinch those expanding side shoots back and force them to. The only recourse you have no matter what you do to enhance the longevity of this tree where you have it is to lengthen the amount of light this tree gets when you bring it indoors. What has me concerned is the lack of growth you seem to be getting when this tree is being placed outdoors. And I feel a lot of that is due to us not letting the tree become a long day plant again. We are not seeing the short day, long day cycle revert back to a long day once the tree comes out of the home for the Winter. Give the tree more indoor light or give the tree more hours of artificial light to force or enact a change in the short day cycle back to a long day cycle prior to placing the tree outdoors. Jim
We may need some help here as this response corresponds to a post in another thread regarding Grapefruit. How about moving Millet’s post here right above this post? Thanks ahead of time if the transition can be made. If we have to think in terms of node count then we need more volume of leaves to receive light in order to achieve a mystic number of nodes for the tree to become mature. I've grown seedling Grapefruit before and had one in particular yielding fruit five years after germination on a 3 foot tall tree. Node count meant nothing in this case. Neither does it to some Rio Red or Ruby Grapefruit grown on 4-6 foot trees in Texas either. The two main differences is that in both instances the trees were in ground outdoors and in no time were the roots ever restricted. Mature in a home grown container plant will be tough to achieve and to be honest I feel it is not a worthwhile adventure for most people unless they want to grow an Ornamental Citrus in which seedling Grapefruit are real good just for that. There have been seedling Grapefruit blooming at 10-12 years of age while grown indoors in a home in containers but only the trees allowed to be outside for longer periods of time than they are sheltered indoors seem to bear fruit. Another long wait that may not be altogether worthwhile either. I also know of another seedling Marsh Grapefruit that did not flower for over 14 years while indoors the whole time and when it was placed outdoors in March it bloomed and yielded fruit that same year. We scratch our heads over such things wondering why these things happen and what caused this tree to all of a sudden now get with the program. I never once have countered you with your advice to others to try to grow something other than a seedling Grapefruit indoors in a home. They are a pain but triggering the tree to bloom can be done but we may need some help such as another Citrus tree used as a pollenizer, not restricted to be solely a pollinator tree either. Solitary seedling Grapefruit can be trouble no matter when grown indoors or outdoors but as long as the tree senses another Citrus tree around or nearby they may be able to be triggered to set flowers along with perhaps some added help from a gibberellin spray and in the days of old a gibberellin spray mixed with a little nicotinamide. The one thing that most but not all indoor, grown in the home, seedling Grapefruit have in common that have flowered and borne fruit is that they have had time outdoors in the sun. Direct sunlight for a few hours still beats 14 hours of ambient light in a greenhouse or worse yet three hours or less of filtered light through a window. The key is that the more leaves that are receiving light all at once the less restrictions the plant places on itself and as a result we get more internal chemical functions than we get from plants grown indoors in a home with only enough sustainable light to yield some growth but at what retardation of overall growth and development in the process? Jim
Jim, I respect your knowledge, and count you as a friend. We will just have to agree to disagree on seedling containerized grapefruit trees, that are grown indoors, or even containerized trees that spend the summer months outside, with or without a neighboring citrus tree. All the citrus trees that I am aware of growing in Texas are always budded trees. Anyway, take care. Personal regards, Millet (1,443-)
I grow my trees year-round in a room with windows that reach the ceiling; the southern and eastern exposure translates into a relatively high amount of light for an indoor setting. A number of the trees are quite vigorous and can produce new growth in one season that is perhaps a foot from reaching the ceiling. These beanstalks are strong, not spindly, have large leaves but lack side branches for the most part. The varieties that exhibit this nature are the lemons (Meyer, Eureka, Lisbon, Ponderosa) and less so the limes (Bearss, Kaffir on trifoliate rootstock). The kumquat (Meiwa) and kumquat hybrids (Calamondin, Eustis limequat) are naturally slow growing and do not exhibit this behavior. The lone orange tree (Trovita on dwarfing rootstock) branches freely without any assistance. I've tried to force branching in the lemons and limes by cutting the beanstalks. Sometimes it results in a bush but even then only for a short time; once growth resumes the beanstalk nature eventually reasserts itself. Thus pruning only results in a tree with multiple beanstalks instead of one. I suspect it's the nature of some varieties to grow like this and if allowed to grow on, branching would eventually occur naturally. Unfortunately this is not an option in an indoor setting given the space constraint. If there is a way to control the size, to force branching to produce a bush, and to perhaps reduce the vigor of these trees, I'd like to know what it is. Jim, can you suggest some pruning techniques to achieve these goals?
I guess a clarification is required by me. We cannot fully equate what will go on or what we expect to see from seedling Grapefruit across the board for indoor grown seedling plants and outdoor grown seedlings. We fully expect to see Grapefruit seedlings flower and bear fruit long before the indoor trees will. Perhaps we are being too overly optimistic and possibly too presumptuous as well but we've had seedling plants out here grown outdoors bloom at much earlier ages than many indoor seedling Grapefruit plants have. All I ever wrote in another thread is that node count is not required for some seedling Grapefruit to set bloom but for indoor plants I feel the working postulate, not a proven theory yet as there are a couple of exceptions, node count of solitary seedling Grapefruit with known light restrictions and root limitations is applicable to a wide range of seedling Grapefruits. The problem I have is that I assume the node count refers to vertical, up and down growth, whereas I feel the node count also pertains to horizontal, lateral growth as well. I look at the whole picture from a total node frame of mind, not solely from a height only point of view. I know with solitary seedling Avocados that the feeling was why these trees took so long to ever set flowers, some didn't as well, was that the trees had to have a set number of nodes for the tree to be developed enough for the tree to self. I've seen these things also in seedling Avocados and feel the node count argument can be valid for a logical explanation as to why these solitary trees took so long to bloom. That does not mean that we cannot influence when the tree can set flowers and by way of introducing another Avocado near the bloomless plant we might be able to have the older tree that has never bloomed set some flowers. I did this for a 30 year old seedling tree years ago just as an experiment to see if it could be done when we set the old tree outdoors on a deck with a non light inhibited Eastern exposure and brought over two of my fifteen gallon Avocados (Mexicola, Fuerte) to see if we could get the old tree to flower. We were able to do it in the second year of trying. Instead of making sure of it now, wanting an answer as to which one or was it both of my Avocados that helped the old tree, I felt what we did was plenty good enough that a pollinizer tree helped and left it at that back then. I don't know the why and what all must have happened answers to questions, all I know is that our trial worked that time. May not work again but then it did not matter. All parties that knew what went on felt more relieved than anything that the "trigger" worked when it may not have been due to us bringing over my two trees when I look back at our successful attempt now. I cannot say for sure if what we did will hold true for other temperamental Avocados but it did work for one of them.. Until we know more I will yield to the node count thinking for indoor grown Grapefruits for now and say that in my mind there is a lot of truth to it from my experience with seedling Grapefruit and wait for other trees to come along to tell me a little more or give me a better reason why the node count scenario may not apply to solitary Grapefruit and Avocado seedling trees grown indoors. Millet, I don’t agree to disagree with anyone in these forums any more. All parties are entitled to their valid opinion. We are not going to agree on everything and there are times we shouldn’t agree, if we want to develop a better understanding of these plants. Junglekeeper, give me a day or two to get back to you. I understand your plight very well. May not be overly helpful but I can give you some ideas to mull over. Jim
Jim, from all the data that I have ever read, and discussions with Dr. Manners, shows node count to be vertical. As I see it, assuming for our discussion, that branch number one, the bottom branch, starts out with the first node----node 1. Node number 1 is the first leaf (closed to the trunk) on the bottom branch. If this branch has ten leaves, the node count for this branch would be 1,2,3,4,5,6....10, with number 10 at the tip of the branch. Branch number 2 starts with node count 2, and if the second branch has 10 leaves, the node count for this branch would be 2,3,4,5,6....10. Branch 3 starts with node 3, if branch 3 produces 20 leaves leaves, node count would be 3,4,5,6,7...20. Then branch 4, branch 5 and so on, until the required node is reached. When I was first introduced to the node count concept, I thought every leaf increased the node count number, other words a horizontal count system. However, talking to Dr. Manners, I was informed that the system is vertical. I hope my explanation is clear enough for understanding. Therefore, for a seedling grapefruit, one would need a very high ceiling. All the best. - Millet
Node count as explained by Dr. Manners in his own words can be found in this thread in an external forum.
If height is a requirement for nodal development, would it be possible to challenge the root network with a bonsai treatment, in order to minimise the vertical expansion of the grapefruit? Would this precipitate bloom? has anyone tried to bonsai a citrus tree? Millet and Jim, with your expertise has this ever being discussed or implemented for any type of citrus?
There are many in the world who bonsai citrus. However, since bonsai is supposed to be a true representation of nature in miniature form, most citrus are not suitable. A 20cm tree may look peculiar with a fully ripened grapefruit on it! Success is usually with calamondin specimens and kumquats. Cuttings are normally air-layered from a mature citrus tree, then planted and left to grow for a few years until the cutting grows a trunk thick enough for bonsai. Then roots are trimmed, branches are styled, and leaves purposefully defoliated several times to reduce the leaf size, thus creating a smaller tree. Takes a lot of time! The leaves can be trained to be smaller, but not the flowers or fruit, so few citrus types are able to be bonsai. To my knowledge, putting a citrus through the regime of becoming bonsai by root-pruning a mature tree would not induce blooms. It would induce more foliage growth. The top growth above the soil line would need to be reduced greatly also. While having a little bit extra top growth against the balance of roots would encourage root growth, too much imbalance would mean the roots could not support the tree and it would likely perish.
Getting somewhat off topic but I believe Fortunella hindsii, Golden Bean Kumquat, is one citrus that is used in bonsai because of its smaller sized foliage and fruit.
thanks for the replies, alot of useful and interesting information! i know that i am not as good a citrus tree keeper as a lot of you guys here on the forum, but i suppose i'm trying/willing to learn so thats a good thing. due to the fact that i live in ireland, i doubt our climate is the best for growing these citrus trees, this is one of the main reasons why i haven't/wouldn't dream of planting this tree outdoors. Unfortunatley, i leave all my citrus trees in doors all year around, i never bring them into the back garden or anything like that, i feel, though, that maybe i should start doing this come summer?? is there any risk to the trees from doing this? (worms and other insects getting into the soil) a few of these trees have been around since i was 8 years old, they started off sitting on the window sill in little containers.. i used to help my grandmother water them and sometimes re pot them into bigger containers.. eventually by the age of around 13 - 15, two of the trees (the grapefruit one above and a clmentine tree) outgrew me in height and today are standing as tall as the 9 foot ceiling. to be honest, in the beginning when i first started looking after the trees, i was keen to have the trees bear fruit, but to be honest, i dont think i have the knowledge (node counts? etc etc) or the climate for this to happen. i'm happy with the way the trees are, they hold a very strong sentimental value to me, so i dont mind if they dont bear fruit. but back to my original question/query.. what would you guys do in my position? leave the tree be and let nature take its course, or intervene and prune at the lowest red mark??
I am sure to be pummelled to death by that M. person, but here goes... if put in your situation, I would prune it like I mentioned above, and repot in a smaller container... I prune and repot my outdoor citrus annually as they must come indoors from Dec. to March... I wish you well on this endeavor.
It would be interesting to use foliar sprays of chemical growth retardants such as Paclobutrazo, l on indoor seedling grapefruit. In test on citrus, Paclobutrazol had significant results on shoot elongation, reducing growth by 55 percent. This is accomplished by a reduction of 25 percent in the length of the internodes, when the foliage was sprayed at 1000 ppm. Further, the fruit size was also reduced by 16 to 33 percent. With the tree producing shorter internodes, the node count would be higher per foot of tree. This would theoreticly reduce the height of a mature seedling grapefruit by a little more than half. - Millet (1,442-)
