grafting platanoides

Discussion in 'Maples' started by katsura, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    An older friend who does not use email/internet called me today to ask if platanoides
    can be grafted on pseudoplatanus rootstock?
    I told him I do not graft but would put the question to a forum of maple experts to
    which I belong so...
    I told my friend that on page 301 of Le Hardy de Beaulieu's An Illustrated Guide to
    Maples, the author says, "One advantage of the sycamore maple is that it can be
    used as rootstock for propagating most maples, even those belonging to a different
    section."
    Any experiences and advice I can pass on?
    Thank you.
     
  2. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Although I don't have personal experience with this, the conventional wisdom is that grafting on the same species is more likely to produce good long-term results, or at least within the same section. Here he would be grafting across sections--section Platanoidea (platanoides) onto section Acer (pseudoplatanus). I recall reading somewhere--I don't recall where, I'm afraid--that although grafts of many species on pseudoplatanus do take initially, there are concerns about delayed graft failure. All seems to go well for a few years or a decade, but the graft union doesn't knit fully, and the trees are more susceptible to damage at the graft later in life. But this isn't authoritative--just a remembered impression. I bet the van Gelderen's would know for sure.

    I would think that truncatum or campestre might be better, because they are in the same section as platanoides, although I wonder what happens when you graft a big tree such as platanoides onto the understock of a species that is naturally smaller, such as truncatum or campestre. If the graft takes, do you end up with a wider trunk perched on a narrower one? I've seen photos of such things.

    If he has the option, I'd suggest that your friend order some understock from a place such as ForestFarm to give himself the best chance of success.

    Dan
     
  3. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Dan, thanks so much for your informative reply which I will pass on to my older friend.
    The "remembered impression" is priceless and perhaps I will send an email to Cor van Gelderen as
    you suggest.
    Many thanks.
    Mike
     
  4. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Must admit I'm baffled why one would want to graft Acer platanoides onto anything different in the first place - Acer platanoides is one of the easiest maples to get hold of seedlings for rootstocks. Usually its seedlings are so abundant as to be considered an invasive nuisance.
     
  5. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Mike, I thought the line at inter-section grafting was that maples with latex could not be grafted to those without. IIRC platanoides has latex, (not sure didn't look it up).

    Last year I received a young graft of section macrantha that did not survive. As is often the case the understock started to grow after the rejection, I was surprised to find it a sycamore.... I queried the grower and was told they use sycamore "when nothing else is available." Needless to say this didn't give me a great feeling.

    -E
     
  6. Scion Swapper

    Scion Swapper Active Member

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    Hi Katsura,

    I visited today with the very person you spoke with. He's a good man and he found a very interesting Norway broom. I don't mess around with A. platanoides, although I have paid a saw/bucket man to kill and grind a couple on my property. I laughed reading Michael F's comment... good point.

    Brian
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    If the broom is a non-flowering form it would never contribute to the severe weediness of Norway Maple in North America - I have seen an unbelievable infestation even in dry-summer Seattle, where these are (so far) seen going wild only sporadically - unless there was a tendency for unattended specimens to be overtaken and replaced by the seed-producing (Norway Maple) rootstock.

    Delayed incompatibility is probably more prevalent among shade, flowering and nut trees than is generally apparent. In one instance English walnut orchards were planted on black walnut rootstocks only to fail just as the trees came into full productivity, resulting in disaster from a business standpoint. Years of investment without a return.

    More vigorous trees grafted onto smaller- or slower-growing rootstocks can and do result in a thick trunk bulging out from above a markedly narrower pedestal. An example I've seen is larger growing Yulania magnolias grafted onto Kobus magnolia stocks. One such tree at the Seattle arboretum may have been declining for years because of delayed incompatibility.

    A very common example of the reverse balance in size and vigor is Higan and other more delicate or dwarfish Japanese cherry cultivars grafted onto Mazzard cherry rootstocks. A rather small tree may end up perched atop a massive stem.
     
  8. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks to all my forum colleagues for your great input on this thread all of which I just read
    over the telephone to my friend who does not use computers.

    Scion swapper, he confirmed he saw you Monday and had kind things to say about you as well.
    Best regards,
    Mike aka 'katsura'
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I also am not wanting to graft a Norway
    Maple onto a Sycamore Maple seedling
    rootstock either. People forget that the
    main reason for interspecies Fall, Winter
    and Spring grafting as well as Summer
    budding in some cases is not done out
    of convenience but to add in vigor into
    the host plant. We more likely will not
    see vigorous offspring as a result from
    an Acer platanoides x Acer pseudoplatanus
    scion to rootstock marriage. I agree
    that Norway Maple is best grafted on
    locally grown, not imported or transported
    in, seedling rootstock instead.

    The main issue with broom growth finds
    is that we want to have a neutral rootstock.
    One that will on one hand provide some vigor
    in the finished product tree but also will not
    force or later enact a change in the broom.
    This area of concern is the problem area
    in how the palmatum 'Aratama' changed
    on us in that at first we had a stubbed
    middle lobed broom that when grafted
    onto a green seedling rootstock over
    time yielded a loss in the stubbed
    middle lobe as seen on a number
    of current day plants. The purists
    kept the Aratama on its own roots
    so that it was less likely to change
    back to the normal leafed plant, albeit
    still a dwarf Maple until it had been
    propagated solely by grafting for a
    number of years and then became
    a semi-dwarf plant for some people.

    We also are not well informed about
    how Acer pentaphyllum was sustained
    either in that the original grafts from the
    Rock plants were grafted onto Sugar
    Maple (Acer saccharum) to help save
    the Yulan plants but to sustain this
    Maple over time, seedlings grown
    from the grafted plants were used
    as the primary rootstock from then
    on until through the efforts of two
    nurserymen and the Occidental plant
    that others had access to seed from
    the second generation grafted plants
    that would yield pentaphyllum leaves.

    So, in effect a broom from a Norway
    Maple can be saved grafting scions
    onto a Sycamore Maple to hold it
    for the short term but for the long
    term this broom is better served
    to be perpetuated back onto a
    Norway Maple rootstock.

    Ron, Kobus as a rootstock was
    never meant to be a long term
    panacea for the Yulan Magnolias,
    neither was Grandiflora either.
    They were meant to be short
    term parent rootstock plants
    to hold or keep the scion plant
    viable until a better or a more
    widely available Yulan rootstock
    could be used as the long term
    rootstock of choice for the selected
    Yulans. The dilemma was that
    only a few people were growing
    seedling Yulans after the long
    wait to see their trees flower
    and set seed. Once the 15-20
    year wait was over and seed
    was available then it was learned
    in some select circles that seedling
    Sprengeri and better yet seedling
    sprengeri ‘Diva’ were more compatible
    for a host of Yulan types. Kobus
    did fine for the short term to hold
    the plants over until a better rootstock
    could be found. Also, this was at a
    time when only a couple of people
    really would even think of devoting
    any Diva plant to be a seed source
    parent for grafting. Everyone else
    wanted to have the Sprengeri seedlings
    to monitor for other colors or to sell
    the seedlings as Sprengeri. There
    was not a market for Diva seedlings
    30 years ago and you already know
    why this was, as too many of the
    seedlings were not as colorful,
    not as pronounced or "as rich a
    pink" (was the rationale told to
    me and seen firsthand as well) in
    many cases as the Diva plants
    were that had been perpetually
    propagated by rooted cuttings
    and later on in the late 70's, early
    80's by way of grafting (to speed
    up the time it took for these plants
    to set flower buds).

    Jim
     
  10. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    great post, Jim, as usual. I never knew that about 'Aratama' which is one of my very favorites.
    Both mine are ablaze right now in new Spring red leaf - both have the foreshortened spatulate
    center lobe. Because I do not graft I never thought of the effect the rootstock had on the scion
    until you kept posting about this very point about which u seem very right. Thanks again.
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Seedlings of the 'Diva' at Caerhays and also at the USNA have had a problem with turning out to be crosses with white saucer magnolias planted nearby. Otherwise the pink Sprenger magnolia reproduces true in the wild and in cultivation, when not contaminated by pollen of other kinds of magnolias in collections. Several other cultivars have arisen from cultivated stock since the pink 'Diva' at Caerhays first flowered. These include 'Claret Cup', 'Copeland Court' and 'Eric Savill'. The latter is known for producing stunningly colored reddish flowers which also unfortunately tend to feature ugly wrinkling of the tepals.

    Sprenger magnolia also occurs with white flowers in nature, and perhaps plants with white flowers (other than var. elongata) are in cultivation as well. A private garden in Seattle has what appears to be one such. However, without genetic testing or some other certifying means it cannot be certain that it is not a hybrid with mostly Sprenger magnolia characteristics.

    There is also a white (or extremely pale pink) flowered seedling in the Seattle arboretum that is recorded as having been collected in the wild. It produces erect flowers superficially resembling those of M. x veitchii but the foliage is like that of Sprenger magnolia - if I have compared the flowers of these two to one another up close I don't remember the outcome.

    A recent article in The Plantsman shows and describes Sprenger magnolias found in the wild in China and addresses a few of the questions about it based on experience in western cultivation that have lingered for many years. The article mentions white flowered plants being known there but does not mention var. elongata (at least by name) at all, making it unclear if they are talking about a second white-flowered type or this.

    Further investigations are said to be planned so more information about the white forms in the wild may appear.

    http://www.rhs.org.uk/Learning/Publications/plantsman/1208/plantsmandec08.htm
     
  12. Scion Swapper

    Scion Swapper Active Member

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    I agree with Jim, use any understock you can get your hands on to "save" the broom, but look long-term toward finding A. platanoides understocks.
    Brian
     

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