Hi everyone I just planted a crimson queen do I want to fertilize to encourage root growth this fall or leave alone till next year. Full dose? half dose? Slow release? LIquid? Ive read no nitro and seen 0-10-10 recomended and used. Also whats a good safe mulch product to use, brand or type? THanks Rob
Fertilize as or just before the leaves turn with granular 0-10-10. I don't think brand is all that important. I would go lightly this year so you don't burn the roots. You might even work into the top inch or so of soil with a hand cultivator so it doesn't wash away. If the tree grows well in the coming year then you can apply moderately by hand, a few inches from the trunk out to the drip line. Stay within the package insturctions, or just a bit lighter. Good qestion. You will find 0-10-10 mentioned throughout this forum and I think it is a good idea. You should also consider it as your spring fertilizer, avoiding nitrogen the first full season at least. Search this forum for the brand name Bandini and you should get a useful hit on what to do for your tree after it has been in the ground a couple of seasons. Michael
Soils vary, even on the same site. Recommendations coming from someone who has not read a soil test report for your soil may not be right for your situation. Sample your soil and have it tested before fertilizing. Be particularly careful about applying phosphorus without knowing how much is already present in your soil.
Where can I find a granular 0-10-10 fertilizer? All I can find is a liquid called Alaska something, and I havnt found a granular in any local stores. Thanks Rob
Hi sorry to bump my own thread but I cannot find any granular 0-10-10 the closest I can find online is bandini super bloom which is 2-10-10 which I would have to find somewhere to order online. What do you use and where do you get it? Thanks Rob
Rob, It is suprisingly hard to find and I guess that is because there is not much demand. I guess that means no one uses it! Therefore, I must be way off base with my recommendation--right? There is only one place here in our area that seems to have it, a local nursery that carries the "Master Gardener" product line. They do not always have it, and when they do it is often in small bags. When I saw a 20lb bag this spring, I bought it and I have not been back since as I do not acutually by plants from that nursery. I helped a friend plant a bunch of maples this year and recently gifted him some of mine for landscape plantings and when I sent him looking for the product he could not find it at the local grange! I thought to myself, doesn't anyone use this stuff, certainly the local grange should have had it. My recommendation is to go and ask someone to order you some. It is good for many plants and shrubs and I used to broadcast it at-will in the fall. Even if you have to get a few bags, it should not be expensive and you will use it. But anyway, anyone who carries the Master Gardner products has access. If you ultimately can't get it, I would use something closer to the 2-10-10 and use later in the fall as not to stimulate growth. Make sure it has a good percentage calcium. MJH
I have no experience with it, but there's a liquid fertilizer called Alaska Mor-Bloom that's listed at 0-10-10. Available on the web for $5.50 per quart or $11.95 per gallon.
Curious, over here it is widely available during the fall in 5-10 kg bags and is mainly used for lawns. Usually I find you guys in the States have more choices of garden supplies at much better prices. Regards Gomero
Hard to find or not, I applied the product to my plants today. The Master Gardner product is formulated as such: Avail. Phosphoric Acid (P2O5) 10% Soluble Postash (K2O) 10% Calcium (Ca) 13% Sulfer (S) 3%
Hi, Like MtnGato stated there is Alaska Morbloom 0-10-10. I've found it at my local lumber/garden center, Anawalt here in Los Angeles. Though it contains fish it's not organic if that matters to you. Also, I've been using Tillies organic 0-10-10 liquid fish fert. for the past year and like it. http://www.dabney.com/ecogenics/tillies.htm There's also Biolink's 0-5-5 at: http://groworganic.com/item_F1860_OrganicBioLink055Quart.html Layne ps, usual disclaimers apply
Hi Layne, While I like the liquid 0-10-10 during the growing season, the granular product is what I prefer in the fall. I just checked my bottle of Alaska 0-10-10 and it seems to only contain the P2O5 and K2O, readily available sources of K and P. The sulfer and elemental calcium immediately available in the granular product are key the the success of this product and ideal for fall application. I don't think the liquid product can be considered a substitute for the graular product. Just a few thoughts. MJH
I'm afraid that I'm going to have to side with Ron on this one. I was involved in Ag Consulting in south-central Idaho for several years. I've never seen a soil sample recommendation come back from a lab for calcium. We have an overabundance of it in this particular geographic area and adding more would make things worse -- not better. This may be one of the reasons why the specific Master Gardner formulation discussed here is not widely available. While it's safe to say that little or no nitrogen should be applied in the autumn to avoid the stimulation of new growth, the remainder of a balanced fertilizer application is variable on a case-by-case, site-by-site basis. Check with your local extension service for more information. Bryan
Bryan, While I know little about soil chemistry, I was wondering if you could tell me if all the calcuim in the soil is actually available to be used by the plant? Can't calcium and other minerals readily be bound in soil, depending on the type, so that an exogenous supply could be benifically added even if a soil sample shows otherwise. These soil tests are not conclusive to plant needs, they only show what is in the soil, but not what is available to the plant. The only way to slove this issue to have the leaves analized, correct? I would like to know more about this soil testing and how it relates to minerals and soil types. Just some thoughts. MJH
Michael, Twenty years ago, I could have probably faked my way through some sort of an answer to your question. But today, my expertise lies in SQL rather than potatoes. However, a quick google did find some very interesting information on this particular subject: http://www.panhandle.unl.edu/potato/html/cementing.htm Taberna was a popular resource even back in my day. Western Labs was the source of some of the recommendations I refered to above. I appologize for the potato-centric nature of this site, but hey, potatoes are a cash crop and so there's a lot of interest in how to grow them. One of the more interesting comments that Taberna makes is as follows: Considering the fact that nearly every recommendation we saw contained 100 to 300 pounds per acre of elemental sulfur, I'm guessing that our soils contained high levels of lime. And, as you indicated, high levels of certain elements can "bind" or inhibit the availability of others. In this case, one attempts to lower the calcium levels in the soil by introducing sulfur so that other elements (e.g. zinc, manganese, iron) become more available for uptake. As a side note, I understand that gypsum is used in some areas in western Idaho and eastern Oregon, so I'm assuming the soils there have some level of calcium deficiency. Perhaps that's true in southwestern Oregon, as well. The last I knew, petiole sampling was primarily used for short-term nutrient corrections via foliar application during the growing season. We used foliar samples extensively to regulate the injection of liquid nitrogen products through irrigation systems. Since nitrogen is taken up by the plants very quickly, it was easy to make mid-season feedings. Correcting other mistakes in soil fertility weren't nearly as easy and were often expensive. So, the major emphasis was still on soil sampling and pre-season fertilization efforts. Hope this helps, Bryan
Through trial and error with experiments I have killed and maimed my share of maples (read hundreds). Everyone has their own unique cultural situation and blanket recommendations can be harmful. We should also realize that no two plants nor plantings are exactly the same. A well respected nurseryman once told me he could get fantastic growth with CaNO3. So I tried it on several dozen 3-5 gallon maples at different dilutions. A hard spring coupled with the overdose of fertilizer killed all of them. I do use small amounts of fertilizer and I am still all for experimentation (what can I say, I am a biology teacher), but I have learned to go lightly...very lightly the first time around. I also believe it is best to check your soil before applying any large amounts of fertilizer. It is easy to check with your local farm or argiculture commissioner and find out where you can get a soil analysis. There are also sites on the web that can be found. For approx. $35. A. & L. Western Ag labs in Modesto CA will check your sample and list out the nutrient levels. I use these guys whenever I change my potting mix so I know whether or not to fertilize and with what to fertilize. It is well worth the price to end the guessing of what will work and agony of burning/killing our maples.
As a side note, I understand that gypsum is used in some areas in western Idaho and eastern Oregon, so I'm assuming the soils there have some level of calcium deficiency. Perhaps that's true in southwestern Oregon, as well. Gypsum with applied water is used for alkaline soils to lower a soil pH. In most soils in Eastern and Southern Oregon the soils are saline to alkaline, so gypsum is used as a corrective soil amendment, not necessarily and in most cases is not used to treat for a Calcium deficiency at all. Granted, most soils will not show a Calcium deficiency upon a basic soil test but even when a more sophisticated test is run which gives us a reading that a percentage of Calcium is in the soil, the Calcium may very well be in a bound state that cannot be freely utilized by the plant. Even an application rate of one tablespoon or one ounce of a 0-10-10 granular fertilizer with a 6-10% Calcium in the formulation per five gallon container plant will not hurt anything. Besides, the Calcium is in the form of a water soluble Calcium sulfate. When this form of Calcium dissolves with lots of water an acid is yielded and it is the acid is what will neutralize the pH in a soil. The reverse is true for adding in Calcium carbonate and water to an acid soil in which an acid is also created that acts as base that will in effect increase the pH of the soil. Don't confuse soil chemistry principles with soil pH balancing with the application of nutrients to a soil to correct nutrient imbalances. Those methods of correction are two different animals. I think it is a smart way to go to have our soil mixes analyzed for use as soil mediums for container plants. I have no qualms with having our soils analyzed for production crops and major plantings of landscape trees and shrubs. I have been an advocate of such measures for years but I do feel it is being silly to have a soil test conducted for the planting of one tree or just a few of them in a home garden. Yes, we can have a basic soil test done for between $35-50 but for a professional job the cost to have a soil analysis done for even as little as one acre will run between $100-200 and more as around here there will be no less than 4 and usually about 8 core samples taken to be analyzed. You get what you pay for in this case. Go "cheap" and you can expect to get some results that can help but to be thorough and have a professional job done will cost you a lot more. To spend in dollars more for the soil analysis and soil management and nutrient correction recommendations, than we have invested in one Maple is almost comical when virtually no one is actively doing such a thing. From my experience, even the people that call for others to have a soil test conducted are not following their own advice and having their own property tested for their individual or multiple plantings as well. Jim
I don't fertilize here anymore. If I was fertilizing, if I was having a mystery plant response problem or I was new to gardening on this property I would sample my soil. Testing your soil tells you what might be going on with all of your gardening; in the case of a single/small number of Japanese maples these can cost enough to purchase that the cost of the soil analysis report might not seem so high. Soil conditions vary seasonally as well as by location, so those wishing to stay so informed will actually have more than one analysis done per year.
Thank you for some easy advice, I do know you should really do multiple samples to come even close to accurate test results which I cannot afford, I do know our water is rock hard there are tons of limestone deposites everywhere in my area and we have pretty much a clay soil base. I dont want to supercharge or fertilize to the max, only to give a little extra nutrients to suppliment anything that could be lacking, kind of like eating a balanced diet and taking a one a day vitamin just for good measure. I found some bone meal and something else that had potassium in it the bag listed it as 0-60-0 and the other 0-0-50 could I just dose these seperately? Also im into aquarium gardening and I have some potassium sulfate and csm+b micro's does anyone know how I would dilute the K sulfate and bonemeal to the right levels? or would anyone out there be willing to ship me some of the 0-10-10 Id be willing to paypal or send a check out to cover the fert and gas money.
Rob, Maybe if you look for a blooming fertilizer you will find 0-10-10. I use E. B. Stone Organics Ultra Bloom Plant Food (O-10-10). It also has 7% Calcium and 3% Sulfur. The mix is derived from bone meal and pot ash. I paid about $5. for a 10 lb. bag. This will be the first fall that I have used a fall fertilizer. (another experiment!). I use half strength the reccommended dose whenever I fertilize. Fertilizer is labeled percent by weight. So a 5 lb. bag of 0-10-10 has O lb. Nitrogen, .5 lb. Phosphorus and .5 lb. Potassium. You might be able to approximate your potassium sulfate, csm+b micro's, K sulfate and bonemeal to the right levels. As Michael said in his original post... go lightly on your application. hope this helps,
If I was fertilizing, if I was having a mystery plant response problem or I was new to gardening on this property I would sample my soil. Testing your soil tells you what might be going on with all of your gardening; in the case of a single/small number of Japanese maples these can cost enough to purchase that the cost of the soil analysis report might not seem so high. It is always wise to have the soil sampled before we ever try to grow anything we are serious about. If we know in advance that we want to plant several Maples in a site and we are not sure if the Maples will do well grown there or not, a soil test becomes imperative in my mind but so many others will not pay the money to have the testing and analysis done. I do agree that most any test will give us a guideline or an aide to help base our cultural Maple growing conditions by. There may very well be times there will be no need for a fertilizer at all (there are people that simply do not understand that). I am certainly not opposed to not using fertilizer applications if they are simply not needed. The use of fertilizers is not solely to add Nitrogen into the soil. In areas that are prone to leaf scorch such as here and in many areas in and around Los Angeles, small amounts of Calcium can help suppress some of the scorching. As a side note, we've learned with Azaleas and one particular hybrid 'Gulf Stream' that this Azalea once in the ground will show a lot of chlorosis in the leaves relatively soon in a saline to alkaline soil. The concern is that when the leaves yellow out on us it was then that the heat we have just fry the leaves and they fall off and the plant does not produce leaves readily in the areas that were scorched, now devoid of leaves and stay that way. It took me three years of trials to finally figure out what will work to green up the leaves, keep them on the plant as applying iron sulfate did nothing to help the leaves of this plant. Overhead sprays of chelates did nothing for them also so I started to use Calcium and yes, I added in some gypsum even to an acid soil mix which many people would cringe about that thought but we do not go overboard with the amounts. Gypsum and lime can also be added together and it was this combination with a modifier is what worked for us with these plants grown in the ground. Small amounts of gypsum applied to an acid medium with lots of water can help correct iron chlorosis in that Azalea but we have to know what is too much gypsum to apply and we have to know when not to apply the gypsum as well. Calcium's life span for a plant grown in a container is rather short lived anyway but no matter what we do we do not depend on using Calcium liberally in a nursery or in a home garden unless our plant and soil relationships dictate that we must. With Maples grown in an alkaline soil with a pH of 9.2 with a saline water with a pH 8.4 we may not have much choice but to use more Calcium in our soil management programs than we would really want to be using but we may not have much choice as people want their Maples in the ground to look good as opposed to being all chewed up and growth stunted due to residual salts coming from both the soil and the water. Ron, I think we both have seen the results of a few people not having a soil test done on their properties prior to any major plantings. To not have the test be our safeguard is being and acting just plain stupid. Even farmers around here will double crop and not have the soil tested before or in between the crops which makes me shake my head wondering what are they thinking. The problem is that so many people have been told they need, not just told they should have a soil test done and they will not do it to protect themselves. I refer to the soil testing as taking out an insurance policy to let us have an idea as to what we are and will be up against growing plants in a particular location. The other side of the equation is that people will not spend $150 for a test when they have $150 invested in the Maple. We have enough people around that will not pay the $150 for the Maple to start with but would rather purchase several one gallon Maples for the same amount of money as the $150. When these plants become of size to be planted they should have a soil test done, even if they have no intentions of ever fertilizing these plants. There may be other factors going on in the soil that may lead to problem issues later for these plants but so many people do not seem to care to want to know about them but prefer to lose plants later that may not have died had they had the testing done. We can lead the horse to water but we cannot force the horse to drink it! Pretty much all 0-10-10 are sold as a bloom fertilizer. Go to a nearby Home Depot in Wisconsin or even if you have to travel some to find the nearest store buy some granular bloom fertilizer for your Fall fertilizer applications if you want to or feel the need to fertilize your plants during the Fall. The Master Gardner brand has been around for many years, for well over 35 years that I know of and used to be the standard brand for soil amendment products carried in many of our leading retail nurseries allover California. I started out using their 2-10-10 for Fall fertilizing but I was not so much using this granular fertilizer as a fertilizer but more so as a plant protectant to help in effect be an antifreeze for me for Citrus root systems. I prefer it did not have any Nitrogen in the formulation so I switched to a 0-10-10 for all of my cold sensitive plants later when a 0-10-10 became available. Later on I used it on most every tree, every potted Camellia, not so much on shrubs in the ground, that I have here but in small amounts from one tablespoon for a Maple or a Camellia in a five gallon up to 4 ounces for Citrus in the ground and with one application only. Jim
Regarding that 0-60-0, read this first. http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Phosphate.pdf
All of the bloom fertilizers sold around here are not low nitrigen, but rather a high phos. like 15-20-10 I cannot find any low nitrate ferts, Ive check all the big box stores and local nursuries.
At least I now have a better idea what the problem is for obtaining 0-10-10. There really are no sources online in which to purchase it in a granular form it seems. I'll admit I would not have believed it until I tried looking around myself. Ron, never assume that mycorrhizal fungi is allover. We do not see it here on our root systems as we are too dry and our soil temperatures are too warm for the fungi to live long. They either burn up or desiccate out on us. Also, there are soil pH extremes that these fungi cannot handle as well and alkaline soils is one of them. Here is where I do agree however. Most 10-60-10 and similar fertilizers are and were not meant to be used as an outdoor fertilizer. This formulation was marketed as being an indoor fertilizer. The super bloom attachment is really stretching things as even for Orchids in a coarse bark potting soil most of the phosphorous will be wasted and leached through the bark almost as fast as the nutrient is applied. Much like humans and their Calcium supplements in that of the Calcium that is not quickly absorbed with food the Calcium will go right through us before it ever got a chance to be useful. When I read an article from someone in Los Angeles touting 10-60-10 for her Roses I said that is it, I give up trying to help people with nutrients. For the record there are some inland soils in and around Los Angeles that are laden with residual phosphorous which is not the case here with our known deficiencies in most of our alluvial soils. If the rosarian ever gets an iron chlorosis she may not never get rid of it as no matter how much iron she applies the phosphorous in the soil from that much being applied (at least 2 applications a year for Roses), combined with the residual phosphorous already in the soil where she is, will cause the iron to bind up and not be readily available to the plant to utilize for some time. Rob, my only suggestion is keep looking online or if you can swing it try to special order some 0-10-10 from a nearby full service retail nursery or if need be go to the lawn and garden center at a Home Depot and tell them you want some 0-10-10 in a 20 pound bag, even if they have to have it shipped in from California. I will admit I was quite surprised that online suppliers are not carrying any 0-10-10 other than liquid forms, one in particular made from fish emulsion. There was a source I found for 0-10-10 online and I got sticker shock and could not believe my eyes that for 5 pounds it was almost triple what I pay for 20 pounds here. It seems you are up against it for a while trying to get some granular 0-10-10 where you are. Jim
