fertilize new fall planted maple or not?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by rob223, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. rob223

    rob223 Member

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    Hi everyone I just planted a crimson queen do I want to fertilize to encourage root growth this fall or leave alone till next year. Full dose? half dose? Slow release? LIquid? Ive read no nitro and seen 0-10-10 recomended and used. Also whats a good safe mulch product to use, brand or type?
    THanks
    Rob
     
  2. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Fertilize as or just before the leaves turn with granular 0-10-10. I don't think brand is all that important. I would go lightly this year so you don't burn the roots. You might even work into the top inch or so of soil with a hand cultivator so it doesn't wash away. If the tree grows well in the coming year then you can apply moderately by hand, a few inches from the trunk out to the drip line. Stay within the package insturctions, or just a bit lighter.

    Good qestion. You will find 0-10-10 mentioned throughout this forum and I think it is a good idea. You should also consider it as your spring fertilizer, avoiding nitrogen the first full season at least.

    Search this forum for the brand name Bandini and you should get a useful hit on what to do for your tree after it has been in the ground a couple of seasons.

    Michael
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Soils vary, even on the same site. Recommendations coming from someone who has not read a soil test report for your soil may not be right for your situation. Sample your soil and have it tested before fertilizing. Be particularly careful about applying phosphorus without knowing how much is already present in your soil.
     
  4. rob223

    rob223 Member

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    Where can I find a granular 0-10-10 fertilizer? All I can find is a liquid called Alaska something, and I havnt found a granular in any local stores.
    Thanks
    Rob
     
  5. rob223

    rob223 Member

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    Hi sorry to bump my own thread but I cannot find any granular 0-10-10 the closest I can find online is bandini super bloom which is 2-10-10 which I would have to find somewhere to order online. What do you use and where do you get it?
    Thanks
    Rob
     
  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Rob,

    It is suprisingly hard to find and I guess that is because there is not much demand. I guess that means no one uses it! Therefore, I must be way off base with my recommendation--right?

    There is only one place here in our area that seems to have it, a local nursery that carries the "Master Gardener" product line. They do not always have it, and when they do it is often in small bags. When I saw a 20lb bag this spring, I bought it and I have not been back since as I do not acutually by plants from that nursery.

    I helped a friend plant a bunch of maples this year and recently gifted him some of mine for landscape plantings and when I sent him looking for the product he could not find it at the local grange! I thought to myself, doesn't anyone use this stuff, certainly the local grange should have had it.

    My recommendation is to go and ask someone to order you some. It is good for many plants and shrubs and I used to broadcast it at-will in the fall. Even if you have to get a few bags, it should not be expensive and you will use it. But anyway, anyone who carries the Master Gardner products has access. If you ultimately can't get it, I would use something closer to the 2-10-10 and use later in the fall as not to stimulate growth. Make sure it has a good percentage calcium.

    MJH
     
  7. MtnGato

    MtnGato Active Member

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    I have no experience with it, but there's a liquid fertilizer called Alaska Mor-Bloom that's listed at 0-10-10. Available on the web for $5.50 per quart or $11.95 per gallon.
     
  8. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Curious, over here it is widely available during the fall in 5-10 kg bags and is mainly used for lawns. Usually I find you guys in the States have more choices of garden supplies at much better prices.

    Regards

    Gomero
     
  9. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hard to find or not, I applied the product to my plants today.

    The Master Gardner product is formulated as such:

    Avail. Phosphoric Acid (P2O5) 10%
    Soluble Postash (K2O) 10%
    Calcium (Ca) 13%
    Sulfer (S) 3%
     
  10. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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  11. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Layne,

    While I like the liquid 0-10-10 during the growing season, the granular product is what I prefer in the fall. I just checked my bottle of Alaska 0-10-10 and it seems to only contain the P2O5 and K2O, readily available sources of K and P. The sulfer and elemental calcium immediately available in the granular product are key the the success of this product and ideal for fall application. I don't think the liquid product can be considered a substitute for the graular product.

    Just a few thoughts.
    MJH
     
  12. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I'm afraid that I'm going to have to side with Ron on this one. I was involved in Ag Consulting in south-central Idaho for several years. I've never seen a soil sample recommendation come back from a lab for calcium. We have an overabundance of it in this particular geographic area and adding more would make things worse -- not better. This may be one of the reasons why the specific Master Gardner formulation discussed here is not widely available.

    While it's safe to say that little or no nitrogen should be applied in the autumn to avoid the stimulation of new growth, the remainder of a balanced fertilizer application is variable on a case-by-case, site-by-site basis. Check with your local extension service for more information.

    Bryan
     
  13. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Bryan,

    While I know little about soil chemistry, I was wondering if you could tell me if all the calcuim in the soil is actually available to be used by the plant? Can't calcium and other minerals readily be bound in soil, depending on the type, so that an exogenous supply could be benifically added even if a soil sample shows otherwise.
    These soil tests are not conclusive to plant needs, they only show what is in the soil, but not what is available to the plant. The only way to slove this issue to have the leaves analized, correct?

    I would like to know more about this soil testing and how it relates to minerals and soil types.

    Just some thoughts.

    MJH
     
  14. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Michael,

    Twenty years ago, I could have probably faked my way through some sort of an answer to your question. But today, my expertise lies in SQL rather than potatoes.

    However, a quick google did find some very interesting information on this particular subject:
    http://www.panhandle.unl.edu/potato/html/cementing.htm

    Taberna was a popular resource even back in my day. Western Labs was the source of some of the recommendations I refered to above. I appologize for the potato-centric nature of this site, but hey, potatoes are a cash crop and so there's a lot of interest in how to grow them.

    One of the more interesting comments that Taberna makes is as follows:

    Considering the fact that nearly every recommendation we saw contained 100 to 300 pounds per acre of elemental sulfur, I'm guessing that our soils contained high levels of lime. And, as you indicated, high levels of certain elements can "bind" or inhibit the availability of others. In this case, one attempts to lower the calcium levels in the soil by introducing sulfur so that other elements (e.g. zinc, manganese, iron) become more available for uptake.

    As a side note, I understand that gypsum is used in some areas in western Idaho and eastern Oregon, so I'm assuming the soils there have some level of calcium deficiency. Perhaps that's true in southwestern Oregon, as well.

    The last I knew, petiole sampling was primarily used for short-term nutrient corrections via foliar application during the growing season. We used foliar samples extensively to regulate the injection of liquid nitrogen products through irrigation systems. Since nitrogen is taken up by the plants very quickly, it was easy to make mid-season feedings. Correcting other mistakes in soil fertility weren't nearly as easy and were often expensive. So, the major emphasis was still on soil sampling and pre-season fertilization efforts.

    Hope this helps,
    Bryan
     
  15. mendocinomaples

    mendocinomaples Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Through trial and error with experiments I have killed and maimed my share of maples (read hundreds). Everyone has their own unique cultural situation and blanket recommendations can be harmful. We should also realize that no two plants nor plantings are exactly the same.

    A well respected nurseryman once told me he could get fantastic growth with CaNO3. So I tried it on several dozen 3-5 gallon maples at different dilutions. A hard spring coupled with the overdose of fertilizer killed all of them.

    I do use small amounts of fertilizer and I am still all for experimentation (what can I say, I am a biology teacher), but I have learned to go lightly...very lightly the first time around. I also believe it is best to check your soil before applying any large amounts of fertilizer. It is easy to check with your local farm or argiculture commissioner and find out where you can get a soil analysis. There are also sites on the web that can be found.

    For approx. $35. A. & L. Western Ag labs in Modesto CA will check your sample and list out the nutrient levels. I use these guys whenever I change my potting mix so I know whether or not to fertilize and with what to fertilize.

    It is well worth the price to end the guessing of what will work and agony of burning/killing our maples.
     
  16. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    As a side note, I understand that gypsum is used in
    some areas in western Idaho and eastern Oregon, so
    I'm assuming the soils there have some level of calcium
    deficiency. Perhaps that's true in southwestern Oregon,
    as well.


    Gypsum with applied water is used for alkaline soils to
    lower a soil pH. In most soils in Eastern and Southern
    Oregon the soils are saline to alkaline, so gypsum is
    used as a corrective soil amendment, not necessarily
    and in most cases is not used to treat for a Calcium
    deficiency at all. Granted, most soils will not show
    a Calcium deficiency upon a basic soil test but even
    when a more sophisticated test is run which gives us
    a reading that a percentage of Calcium is in the soil,
    the Calcium may very well be in a bound state that
    cannot be freely utilized by the plant.

    Even an application rate of one tablespoon or one
    ounce of a 0-10-10 granular fertilizer with a 6-10%
    Calcium in the formulation per five gallon container
    plant will not hurt anything. Besides, the Calcium
    is in the form of a water soluble Calcium sulfate.
    When this form of Calcium dissolves with lots of
    water an acid is yielded and it is the acid is what
    will neutralize the pH in a soil. The reverse is true
    for adding in Calcium carbonate and water to an
    acid soil in which an acid is also created that acts
    as base that will in effect increase the pH of the
    soil. Don't confuse soil chemistry principles with
    soil pH balancing with the application of nutrients
    to a soil to correct nutrient imbalances. Those
    methods of correction are two different animals.

    I think it is a smart way to go to have our soil mixes
    analyzed for use as soil mediums for container plants.
    I have no qualms with having our soils analyzed for
    production crops and major plantings of landscape
    trees and shrubs. I have been an advocate of such
    measures for years but I do feel it is being silly to
    have a soil test conducted for the planting of one
    tree or just a few of them in a home garden. Yes,
    we can have a basic soil test done for between
    $35-50 but for a professional job the cost to have
    a soil analysis done for even as little as one acre
    will run between $100-200 and more as around
    here there will be no less than 4 and usually about
    8 core samples taken to be analyzed. You get what
    you pay for in this case. Go "cheap" and you can
    expect to get some results that can help but to be
    thorough and have a professional job done will
    cost you a lot more.

    To spend in dollars more for the soil analysis and soil
    management and nutrient correction recommendations,
    than we have invested in one Maple is almost comical
    when virtually no one is actively doing such a thing.
    From my experience, even the people that call for
    others to have a soil test conducted are not following
    their own advice and having their own property tested
    for their individual or multiple plantings as well.

    Jim
     
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I don't fertilize here anymore. If I was fertilizing, if I was having a mystery plant response problem or I was new to gardening on this property I would sample my soil. Testing your soil tells you what might be going on with all of your gardening; in the case of a single/small number of Japanese maples these can cost enough to purchase that the cost of the soil analysis report might not seem so high.

    Soil conditions vary seasonally as well as by location, so those wishing to stay so informed will actually have more than one analysis done per year.
     
  18. rob223

    rob223 Member

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    Thank you for some easy advice, I do know you should really do multiple samples to come even close to accurate test results which I cannot afford, I do know our water is rock hard there are tons of limestone deposites everywhere in my area and we have pretty much a clay soil base.
    I dont want to supercharge or fertilize to the max, only to give a little extra nutrients to suppliment anything that could be lacking, kind of like eating a balanced diet and taking a one a day vitamin just for good measure.
    I found some bone meal and something else that had potassium in it the bag listed it as 0-60-0 and the other 0-0-50 could I just dose these seperately? Also im into aquarium gardening and I have some potassium sulfate and csm+b micro's does anyone know how I would dilute the K sulfate and bonemeal to the right levels?
    or would anyone out there be willing to ship me some of the 0-10-10 Id be willing to paypal or send a check out to cover the fert and gas money.
     
  19. mendocinomaples

    mendocinomaples Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Rob,

    Maybe if you look for a blooming fertilizer you will find 0-10-10. I use E. B. Stone Organics Ultra Bloom Plant Food (O-10-10). It also has 7% Calcium and 3% Sulfur. The mix is derived from bone meal and pot ash. I paid about $5. for a 10 lb. bag. This will be the first fall that I have used a fall fertilizer. (another experiment!). I use half strength the reccommended dose whenever I fertilize.

    Fertilizer is labeled percent by weight. So a 5 lb. bag of 0-10-10 has O lb. Nitrogen, .5 lb. Phosphorus and .5 lb. Potassium. You might be able to approximate your potassium sulfate, csm+b micro's, K sulfate and bonemeal to the right levels.

    As Michael said in his original post... go lightly on your application.

    hope this helps,
     
  20. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    If I was fertilizing, if I was having a mystery plant
    response problem or I was new to gardening on this
    property I would sample my soil. Testing your soil
    tells you what might be going on with all of your
    gardening; in the case of a single/small number of
    Japanese maples these can cost enough to purchase
    that the cost of the soil analysis report might not
    seem so high.


    It is always wise to have the soil sampled before we
    ever try to grow anything we are serious about. If we
    know in advance that we want to plant several Maples
    in a site and we are not sure if the Maples will do well
    grown there or not, a soil test becomes imperative in
    my mind but so many others will not pay the money to
    have the testing and analysis done. I do agree that most
    any test will give us a guideline or an aide to help base
    our cultural Maple growing conditions by. There may
    very well be times there will be no need for a fertilizer
    at all (there are people that simply do not understand
    that). I am certainly not opposed to not using fertilizer
    applications if they are simply not needed. The use
    of fertilizers is not solely to add Nitrogen into the soil.
    In areas that are prone to leaf scorch such as here and
    in many areas in and around Los Angeles, small
    amounts of Calcium can help suppress some of the
    scorching.

    As a side note, we've learned with Azaleas and one
    particular hybrid 'Gulf Stream' that this Azalea once
    in the ground will show a lot of chlorosis in the leaves
    relatively soon in a saline to alkaline soil. The concern
    is that when the leaves yellow out on us it was then that
    the heat we have just fry the leaves and they fall off and
    the plant does not produce leaves readily in the areas that
    were scorched, now devoid of leaves and stay that way.
    It took me three years of trials to finally figure out what
    will work to green up the leaves, keep them on the plant
    as applying iron sulfate did nothing to help the leaves of
    this plant. Overhead sprays of chelates did nothing for
    them also so I started to use Calcium and yes, I added
    in some gypsum even to an acid soil mix which many
    people would cringe about that thought but we do not
    go overboard with the amounts. Gypsum and lime
    can also be added together and it was this combination
    with a modifier is what worked for us with these plants
    grown in the ground. Small amounts of gypsum applied
    to an acid medium with lots of water can help correct
    iron chlorosis in that Azalea but we have to know what
    is too much gypsum to apply and we have to know when
    not to apply the gypsum as well.

    Calcium's life span for a plant grown in a container
    is rather short lived anyway but no matter what we
    do we do not depend on using Calcium liberally in
    a nursery or in a home garden unless our plant and
    soil relationships dictate that we must. With Maples
    grown in an alkaline soil with a pH of 9.2 with a
    saline water with a pH 8.4 we may not have much
    choice but to use more Calcium in our soil management
    programs than we would really want to be using but
    we may not have much choice as people want their
    Maples in the ground to look good as opposed to
    being all chewed up and growth stunted due to
    residual salts coming from both the soil and
    the water.

    Ron, I think we both have seen the results of a
    few people not having a soil test done on their
    properties prior to any major plantings. To not
    have the test be our safeguard is being and acting
    just plain stupid. Even farmers around here will
    double crop and not have the soil tested before
    or in between the crops which makes me shake
    my head wondering what are they thinking.

    The problem is that so many people have been
    told they need, not just told they should have a
    soil test done and they will not do it to protect
    themselves. I refer to the soil testing as taking
    out an insurance policy to let us have an idea as to
    what we are and will be up against growing plants
    in a particular location. The other side of the
    equation is that people will not spend $150 for
    a test when they have $150 invested in the Maple.
    We have enough people around that will not pay
    the $150 for the Maple to start with but would
    rather purchase several one gallon Maples for
    the same amount of money as the $150. When
    these plants become of size to be planted they
    should have a soil test done, even if they have
    no intentions of ever fertilizing these plants.
    There may be other factors going on in the
    soil that may lead to problem issues later for
    these plants but so many people do not seem
    to care to want to know about them but prefer
    to lose plants later that may not have died had
    they had the testing done. We can lead the
    horse to water but we cannot force the horse
    to drink it!

    Pretty much all 0-10-10 are sold as a bloom
    fertilizer. Go to a nearby Home Depot in
    Wisconsin or even if you have to travel some
    to find the nearest store buy some granular
    bloom fertilizer for your Fall fertilizer
    applications if you want to or feel the need
    to fertilize your plants during the Fall.
    The Master Gardner brand has been around
    for many years, for well over 35 years that I
    know of and used to be the standard brand for
    soil amendment products carried in many of
    our leading retail nurseries allover California.
    I started out using their 2-10-10 for Fall
    fertilizing but I was not so much using this
    granular fertilizer as a fertilizer but more so
    as a plant protectant to help in effect be an
    antifreeze for me for Citrus root systems.
    I prefer it did not have any Nitrogen in the
    formulation so I switched to a 0-10-10 for
    all of my cold sensitive plants later when a
    0-10-10 became available. Later on I used
    it on most every tree, every potted Camellia,
    not so much on shrubs in the ground, that I
    have here but in small amounts from one
    tablespoon for a Maple or a Camellia in
    a five gallon up to 4 ounces for Citrus in
    the ground and with one application only.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2005
  21. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  22. rob223

    rob223 Member

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    All of the bloom fertilizers sold around here are not low nitrigen, but rather a high phos. like 15-20-10 I cannot find any low nitrate ferts, Ive check all the big box stores and local nursuries.
     
  23. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    At least I now have a better idea what the problem
    is for obtaining 0-10-10. There really are no
    sources online in which to purchase it in a granular
    form it seems. I'll admit I would not have believed
    it until I tried looking around myself.

    Ron, never assume that mycorrhizal fungi is allover.
    We do not see it here on our root systems as we
    are too dry and our soil temperatures are too warm
    for the fungi to live long. They either burn up or
    desiccate out on us. Also, there are soil pH extremes
    that these fungi cannot handle as well and alkaline
    soils is one of them.

    Here is where I do agree however. Most 10-60-10
    and similar fertilizers are and were not meant to be
    used as an outdoor fertilizer. This formulation was
    marketed as being an indoor fertilizer. The super
    bloom attachment is really stretching things as even
    for Orchids in a coarse bark potting soil most of the
    phosphorous will be wasted and leached through the
    bark almost as fast as the nutrient is applied. Much
    like humans and their Calcium supplements in that
    of the Calcium that is not quickly absorbed with
    food the Calcium will go right through us before
    it ever got a chance to be useful. When I read an
    article from someone in Los Angeles touting
    10-60-10 for her Roses I said that is it, I give
    up trying to help people with nutrients. For
    the record there are some inland soils in and
    around Los Angeles that are laden with residual
    phosphorous which is not the case here with
    our known deficiencies in most of our alluvial
    soils. If the rosarian ever gets an iron chlorosis
    she may not never get rid of it as no matter how
    much iron she applies the phosphorous in the
    soil from that much being applied (at least 2
    applications a year for Roses), combined with
    the residual phosphorous already in the soil
    where she is, will cause the iron to bind up
    and not be readily available to the plant to
    utilize for some time.

    Rob, my only suggestion is keep looking online
    or if you can swing it try to special order some
    0-10-10 from a nearby full service retail nursery
    or if need be go to the lawn and garden center at
    a Home Depot and tell them you want some
    0-10-10 in a 20 pound bag, even if they have to
    have it shipped in from California. I will admit
    I was quite surprised that online suppliers are
    not carrying any 0-10-10 other than liquid forms,
    one in particular made from fish emulsion. There
    was a source I found for 0-10-10 online and I got
    sticker shock and could not believe my eyes that
    for 5 pounds it was almost triple what I pay for
    20 pounds here. It seems you are up against it
    for a while trying to get some granular 0-10-10
    where you are.

    Jim
     

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