W-O-W! That's all I have to say on this completely thorough discussion--I can't add anything except that once again Sam's plants are the BEST! I just got in a Toyama Nishiki that was PERFECTLY healthy (almost NO leaf burn at all!) and well branched--and the leaves were the stunning variegate that you expect but rarely get with this controversial cultivar. 10 thumbs up Sam (and if I actually had ten thumbs I'd put them up!). K4's right about this--IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS! LOL David
I was browsing through the offerings on Ebay and saw some fine pics of a few cultivars. They were great looking, healthy plants. I know because they were mine! This vendor used my UBC pics of 'Utsu semi', 'Palmatifolium' and 'Okushimo'. Doubtless there are plenty of other UBC pics borrowed for commercial use. Should we feel proud or used?
Hi Gil, Interesting discovery on eBay... I can see why you'd feel proud, but then I am also a bit bothered by the use of your photos. If they asked your permission - very cool, but if not - ew. Seems like stepping over the line. Just my feeling about it.
Spook, I was thinking along the same lines. I would have appreciated a heads up or credit or something like that. I sent the vendor 3 messages worded mildly. I'll report back on their response.
Hi Spookie and Gil, Well, well, this vendor is using at least one of my pics - Red Dragon. I am none too happy. Sam
I am glad y'all feel that way too. eBay can be a tough enough place for buyers and I always feel the actual item for sale should be the primary photo. Sure, have additional photo of a mature tree, leaf detail, or fall color if you like, but don't try to pull the wool by using a glossy image that in no way represents the actual item for sale. Those images of 100 year old bonsai for the sale of "bonsai seed" come to mind. Beyond eBay however, it just seems wrong to hijack stuff from the Internet to use without permission in any sales or advartising arena. Copy-and-pasting a photo into an e-mail to show a friend something you like or think is lovely seems okay to me, but once you transfer that image to a new public arena - namely a moneymaking one - it seems an infringement on digital property. I don't know what the laws are though. That seller seems bold to use not only forum images, but images from another seller (Sam at Eastfork). Maybe we all need to send e-mail to eBay. I do know that should anyone ever publish a maple book containing all the information in this forum (there is so much brilliant info here and so many fabulous images it appears a glorious opportunity, "Maple Collecting: Advice from Growers Around the Globe"! You could even travel around and photograph individual landscapes. We should do this!), that permission would have to be received by each author for publication. I don't see why the eBay situation should be any different. Isn't posting the image in an online auction publication plain and simple?
Does UBC have a policy or notice that the pictures are copyrighted? Or that they may only be used with permission? Probably not - but they should. Unless they have a warning to that effect, I doubt any of us have much legal ground unless we have posted pics with a clear copyright watermark. Perhaps Daniel can respond to this issue. There is nothing in the Forum rules that I could find regarding posted images and copyrights.
Great point K4, I do hope that the UBC forum does not protect the images posted here from copy-and-pasting though, because I am guilty of that... I admit I have printed an image or two or specific advice about soil or tree care for my own edification. I have printed pictures of specific cultivars when concerned that my tree looks nothing like it is supposed to! Granted, this is STRICTLY for personal use and would never be used otherwise without proper permissions. I hope my actions are not out of line! Y'all please let me know if you think I should ask permission to print a photo or text from the forum for personal use. I really love the free exchange of expertise and experience here in the forum and DO NOT want to step on toes like the eBay seller in question.
You should feel used if someone uses your photographs without permission. Yes, an email to eBay will eventually red-flag a seller. I've done it in the past. As to the copyright issue -- images posted on the forums are the property of the owners -- but if you want to remove them, I ask that you work with me so that the collective work of the thread of discussion is minimally affected. For USians, you can read this: Copyright Primer. In short, you own the copyright as soon as the shutter is pressed and posting it to a web site with or without a mark has no bearing other than it may make it more difficult for you to legally prove ownership. Registering your work, however, gives you an added legal protection (and, in fact, would be a good idea if you'd like to be enterprising and sue the pants off people who steal your images -- it's probably one of the best ways of making money with specialty / niche images like obscure maple cultivars ;-) ): In Canada, we don't have registration -- and, in essence, this is why the issue of copyright is a sticky one for web forums. International audience, international participants, international use. The concept of copyright has not kept up (and perhaps never will) with how people use images.
Oh, also -- I believe other forums may take different approaches. You'd need to read their terms of use. I seem to recall a big foofarah on one of them when the forums owner tried to assert unlimited license to use images and text posted to the site (so, in essence, the images and text could be used in a book published by the forums owner without asking the individuals who contributed images and text to the forums). We don't do that.
Hi All and Daniel, Great discussion. I know there is a way to imprint your name in the middle of a photo, but I have not figured it out yet. I received permission from Talon Buchholz to use some of his photos, but I try to always acknowledge that the photo is his and I have permission. Not sure how to resolve this issuse. eBay is such a big, big entity that I doubt our little protest would necessitate a change in their policy, which does state that photos should be the property of the seller or acknowledge permission. The trouble is 'enforcement of the policy'. Sam
eBay does enforce (more or less). The trick is to use the "Report This Item" at the bottom of every page, select Counterfeit or Copyright Violation -> eBay item infringes your intellectual property rights... and when the time comes to give a brief description, include the web address where your photograph is posted on here so that it makes it easy for them to determine the theft of the image.
Poetry to Burn, Dont be upset, But I think we might all be taking this a bit seriously, maybe except for Sam who's money is at stake. I would be complimented if someone hijacked a photo of mine. it would mean I finally grew something noteworthy. It's to easy to copy a photo, and even water marks could easily be cropped out. However, right clicking and editing a photo with paint allows me to easily add in some text. (see below) I see this all the time on Dave's Garden. Mike
Mike, I am sort of flattered. I just think it's collegial to send a heads up or a request something like that. Now you too can feel complimented.
Ugh, I find this bothersome and deceitful. This seller *knows* that this is not appropriate but chooses to make the quick buck. If they don't have a mature photo of their cultivar (or permission from their supplier) it means they are misrepresenting their product and who knows what it will turn out to look like.
The vendor hasn't responded to my messages. I used the report this item link on the auction page. Wonder how ebay will proceed. I'll report back.
Still no response from the vendor Bamboo Trader aka Kigi Nursery. Ebay did send a canned response than included a form for me to fill out and fax back to them, working on it.... "An e mail to ebay will sort it out" <---i have NEVER sorted out an ebay issue with one email. In my experience communicating with Ebay is a frustrating experience, their customer relations skills have been as abysmal as many of their business practices.
the maple community seems to be a relatively small world, and his or her reputation will soon precede them. It seems silly then for this vendor not to have just asked permission to use images when as you mention, most are more than happy to oblige (althought I note that Sam is not the only vendor from whome pictures seem to have been appropriated)
