Deshojo vs Shindeshojo

Discussion in 'Maples' started by ajm55555, May 9, 2016.

  1. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    Hello everyone! I'd be really curious to know:
    • How you can distinguish a Deshojo from a Shindeshojo. I read the leaves are a bit different but I really can't find a good picture of both where you can see that.
    • What was improved in Shindeshojo? Strength to pests/fungi? Life span? Strength in general?
    Thank you!
     
  2. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi, I believe they are 2 names for the same plant. (I just checked in Yano, it says as much). So, no difference.

    I have a couple of young deshojo grafts leafing out now, they are brilliant plants.
     
  3. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    Hi Emery! I read that: "'Shin' means "new" indicating that this cultivar is a later improved selection of the well known 'Deshojo'" and, somewhere else, that the leaves are slightly different.
    So I guess they're pretty similar but there must be differences. I really would like to find out how you can tell one from the other and what was improved.
    I have a (Shin?)Deshojo bonsai, but I don't know which one it is ;-)
     

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  4. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    When I had Deshojo I think the leaves looked slightly larger but it was in a completely different situation to my Shin D.My Deshojo also had a nice red fall colour whereas my Shin has never showed anything to speak of.However both these differences could just be location and massive difference in size.
     
  5. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well, I told you what Yano said, he is in a position to know, afterwards you can believe it or not! :)

    I had understood the "shin" (new or improved as you point out) was just added to help with marketing. YMMV, maybe someone else has something on it.

    Of course what they sell in different places, and what they call it, who knows? Many "cultivars" are sold that are not true to name, sadly.
     
  6. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    It just seems strange to me to use a different name for the same cultivar and not having a selling point to support it. I'll add what you say to what I know but I don't feel it's all. Thanks for your help :-)
     
  7. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    That wouldn't surprise me at all Emery.
     
  8. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

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    The van Gelderens (Maples for Gardens) describe them as different cultivars.

    Deshojo: Corallinum Group. Alternatively "Deshohjoh." A fairly well-growing shrub, up to 3 to 4 m (10-13 feet), with thin branchlets and shoots. Leaves 4-5 cm wide, five-lobed, brilliantly red when unfolding, later turning dark pink and bluish green to green; fall color not spectacular. Origin Japanese, before 1900. Requiring a sheltered place in the garden, it is popular for bonsai.

    Shin deshojo: Corallinum Group. Alternatively "Shin deshohjoh." A shrub up to 2.5 to 3m (8-10 feet), densely branched, branches thin and prone to some dieback in winter. Leaves small, five lobed, brilliant scarlet when unfolding, later fading to bluish pink and dull green; fall color not spectacular. Origin Japanese, before 1950. Shin deshojo means "a new Deshojo." It is especially attractive in the spring.

    ...I'd read somewhere that Shin deshojo was developed by the Japanese to have a longer period of spring color.

    Some leaf comparisons:
    Deshojo: http://www.m aillot-bonsai.com/en/boutique/7_young-maples-and-bonsai/1210_acer-palmatum-deshojo
    Shin deshojo:Acer palmatum SHIN DESHOJO from Maillot-Erable - The store MAILLOT-ERABLE

    Deshojo:Pictures and description of Acer palmatum De shohjoh - www.esveld.nl
    Shin deshojo: Afbeeldingen en beschrijving van Acer palmatum Shin de shohjoh - www.esveld.nl
     
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  9. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    Thanks for the info maplesmagpie! I'll check the links. I'm starting to think the one I got (see pic above) is a Deshojo...
     
  10. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    From a few pictures I checked one difference could be that early Deshojo leaves have 7 points while Shindeshojo tend to have 5 and the other 2 do not develop much. That happens on my "Deshojo" too but not with the first ones to sprout that fully develop and from red turn to dark green. It happens on some of the last ones, those that tend to have purple borders and spots (like in the 1st picture above).
    I'll continue my quest ;-) Thanks everyone for your help!
     

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  11. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    I found some interesting pictures from a link in the resource page, with pictures of both: Deshojo and Shindeshojo.
    Now I'm pointing more to the Shindeshojo... but I'm really not sure yet.
    Anyone has an idea?
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    On page 129 of the Vertrees second edition 'Japanese Maples' book you can see the photo of Don Kleim's Deshojo showing leaves that are all red, all pink and green on the same branch. You can start to see the pink mottling of color in some of the green leaves also. Mature plants are generally nine feet x nine feet wide. Thus it is a semi-dwarf bush form. Mr. Yano currently lists the Maple with a more recent spelling of De syojo #0253 and a variant form De syojo #0711. Also listed is De syojo nishiki #1453. Of particular interest, in 2005 from the Ganshukutei web site the Maples were shown with the older, recognized spellings of Deshojo #0253 and lists the variant form as #0711. In 2005 Deshojo nishiki was spelled this way as #1453. Also Shindeshojo is listed in 2005 as #0197. Thus, in the year 2005 these four plants were felt to be different and had the old spellings.

    On page 137 we can see the pink mottle on a smaller sized leaf in the photo on the left of Shindeshojo. The photo on the right is the Oregon form of Shindeshojo which is actually Kondeshojo. In temples in Japan much of the time Shindeshojo has pink colored leaves that hold longer during the growing season than Deshojo and is more of a dwarf form growing up to six feet tall and can be six feet wide. Kondeshojo with brighter red Spring colored leaves can grow up to 12 - 15 feet tall and 9 - 12 feet wide, the largest growing Maple of this series. Shindeshojo means new Deshojo. It is an improved version in overall color, how long it holds its color and is more of a dwarf form Maple than the old Deshojo Maple is. Yes, there is more fungal disease resistance in Shindeshojo than Deshojo from Japan. Sourcing years ago was quite important for Deshojo as some plants had good color and others did not, depending on where and who they came from in Japan and later here as well. Shindeshojo is better known worldwide as a good landscape plant, whereas Kondeshojo is the better upright tree grown in the Oregon landscape.

    Jim
     
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  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I wonder if Yano-san's opinion has changed, because the text my friend translated from #0253 on another thread is no longer present.
    I never found the a link on his site for 0197, there listed as Shin deshohjoh, so I guess he hasn't filled this one in.

    -E
     
  14. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    This is very interesting Jim! Thanks.
    Can I have your opinion on what type of Deshojo the following tree of mine is?

    Emery, I'm really puzzled by all the different and really similar species there are out there and I think only an expert can really recognize them if they don't have major traits. Or someone with a good reference book and a lot of time :-)
     

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  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Years ago I made a copy of the Ganshukutei web site for personal use only. What surprised me was when I saw the newer spellings listed in the A ~ H, I ~ L, M ~ S, and T ~ Z sections and when I clicked on a name, the htm page would show up with the old, recognized spellings.

    Jim
     
  16. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    That was a good idea. I know he works on this stuff all the time. In fact, he works a tremendous amount, pretty much constantly.
     
  17. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    Thanks for all the great info in your original post.
    Don Schmidt nursery always has great photos. In the link below you will find a picture that looks like what you describe on Don Kleim's tree and the branch showing all the color variations on one branch?
    http://www.donschmidtnursery.com/Images/photos/shindeshojo4.jpg


    Don Schmidt Nursery | Plant Database

    Or is it the Oregon variety...
    I need to buy the second edition that you mentioned.

    Thanks for sharing your lifetime experience and knowledge that I value so much!
     
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  18. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The old Deshojo plants that were in the US in the mid to late 60's generally did not have allover leaves of one color after the initial Spring leaf out and after those leaves have expanded. It was only then that Deshojo could be allover red. In our area the changes in leaf color would show up with the next flush of new growth. The new growth could be red or pink or both while the original red leaves start to show some green much like the photo showed of the Schmidt Maple but that Maple also shows new growth that is almost variegated. If this is indeed the case and their Maple also shows the sand sprinkle Fu then their plant is Ima deshojo, same as mine. Shindeshojo is not a variegated Maple but two other Maples in this group are variegated and they are Masukagami and Masukaga.
    One is a pink/green mottle leaf and the other is a yellow green and green leaf with pink Fu blotches of color, very similar to Mr. Yano's De syojo nishiki.

    I do have the Vertrees/Gregory third and fourth edition books.
    I reference the second edition much more so because I know who owned several of the Maples shown in the book.

    Post more photos of your Maple at various times of the year as we need to see more of it to better determine what you may have. Also what growing conditions are you providing such as parcial shade, grown in a saran house in 45 - 60% shade. Morning sun with afternoon shade or filtered sun as it does matter.
    What was the Maple sold to you as being? About how many flushes of new growth do you get in a typical year and what are the Fall colors?
    In most areas Shindeshojo provides the best uniform Fall color and Kondeshojo has the best uniform red Spring colored leaves.

    Jim
     
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  19. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I neglected to mention that the Schmidt Maple has been sold as Shindeshojo in Oregon as well.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  20. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    Jim, the seller told me the plant comes from either Japan or Korea. He always refers to this variety as Deshojo but he has no clue about Shindeshojo.
    It's on a balcony and gets sun from the mid afternoon.
    I only have it since May 2015 and if I remember well there was another flush of new growth during the summer.
    Fall colors and other season colors in the pics. Thanks for your help!
     

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  21. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    As of right now, based on seeing your recent group of photos on my computer for the first time, as opposed to my iPhone, my feelings today are that your Maple is consistent with some of the European nursery offerings for Deshojo.

    Jim
     
  22. ajm55555

    ajm55555 New Member

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    Thanks for your insight Jim!
     

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