creating a beautiful kids' play lawn?

Discussion in 'HortForum' started by flowmom, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Hello,

    I am looking for solutions for a 150 s.f. patch of lawn that is currently struggling (lots of patches of bare soil). Here's the situation with the lawn:
    • heavily used play area by children (including in wet weather)
    • shaded most of the day
    • not watered much
    • soil is quite silty
    • soil is not very deep (in large planter over concrete)
    We are willing to invest some money and effort if we can keep the lawn beautiful while maintaining its function as a kids' play area. I am assuming that the existing grass will have to be dug up.

    Here are the ideas that I had about addressing the compaction problem:
    1. Safety Deck II mats: a product designed for playgrounds. A concern that I have about that is that the mats might be quite visible from above, especially given that the most of the surface area is plastic. Another concern is that, during children's play, the grass stems might be sheared off, exposing the mat.
    2. One of the permeable pavement [edited to add that it's called "structural grass", no permeable pavement] products such as Grassy Pavers. I believe that a similar product is being used in the so-called "Country Lanes" in Vancouver. One advantage is that only about 10% of the surface area would be plastic so it would not be too visible. Also shear stress on the grass blade would be at the base, which presumbly is stronger than higher on the blade. But this type of product may be overkill (designed to be driven on) and would also be a very hard surface for playing on I imagine. Edited to add that it sounds like it really is not a comfortable playing surface.
    3. Removing the existing soil and adding a sand base. I seem to remember Brian Minter talking about this on CBC Radio One, but I don't remember how deep the sand was supposed to be, or whether it would be OK for kids to walk on it while the grass was becoming established. I'm not sure if a sand base would adequately address the compaction issues on the site either.
    Comments?

    I would also welcome recommendations of what type of grass seed or sod to get given the site conditions.

    Thanks in advance for any replies!
    flowmom
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2006
  2. Buzzbee

    Buzzbee Active Member

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ladner, B.C.
    www.highlandredi-greenturffarm.ca

    check out this site, it is in Maple Ridge and they should be able to help you. Or at least suggest someone who can. They provide turf to all the major playing fields.
     
  3. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    Perrennial Rye Grasss and Kentucky Blue Grass 50/50. Overseed.

    The perennial rye germinates quickly but the bluegrass recovers from usage more quickly due to rhizomes.

    Do it now and seed over existing grass for good spring lawn. Feed with super phosphate and calcium nitrate, if you can. Phosphate will help root growth and non-acid nitrate will give grass roots a buffered feed. Dolomite lime and feed before you sow
    Dolomite lime followed by a triple 12 fertilizer will probably do the whole trick.
    Avoid the really high nitrate fertilizers at this time of the year because the produce soft foliage and you are trying to get the new plants to produce roots.

    You can always go to sod in the spring if your seed attempt fails.
     
  4. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Buzzbee and GreenGoose, thanks for your replies! It's so great to get feedback on this issue after spending a lot of time trying to find answers.
    I contacted them but their sod isn't suitable for shade. They directed me to Anderson Sod, and they recommended their "Shade Sand" sod (I think 20% ryegrass, 20% bluegrass, 60% fine fescue). They said that dealing with the shade issue is a higher priority than the compaction issue. To address the compaction issue they recommended a 6" base of a sand/organic mixture.
    This makes sense but I must say the lawn is in really bad shape with bumpiness and holes, etc. so I'm thinking we should start fresh. I'm also concerned that this doesn't really address the soil component of the compaction issue. Doesn't installing a sand base ensure that the grass root space is maintained in the soil interstices? I really don't know what I'm talking about here so feel free to enlighten me :-D .
     
  5. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Metro Vancouver, BC, Canada.
    I have always been told kentucky bluegrass doesnt survive our wet winters, did I miss something? generally our seed blends (lower mainland anyways) are a mix of fescue and ryegrass.

    I have use sod from Anderson, Highland and Western Turf farms, all do fairly well in the right conditions. pure sand doesnt drain very well due to capillary action, in a blend of sand and soil it will function to maintain pore spaces with differential aggregate size.
     
  6. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Thanks for sharing your experience jimmyq...
     
  7. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    I think Bluegrass is ok with moisture but it doesn't like shade much and fescues will usually choke out other grasses in shaded areas eventually. While fescue is tough, it never looks as good as Bluegrass, imo
     
  8. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    Let's start again.


    Sub-soil:

    The strata below the soil must drain or you have a swamp, not a grass lawn. You mentioned sand and jimmyq pointed out that sand wicks water. You may have seen tv programs where all weather fields or golf greens were being constructed with sand being under the soil. Often designers will put a number of artificial strata under a grass area to assure optimum all-weather growth. In such cases the bottom layer will be very coarse material, rocks, perhaps crossed with plastic drainpipe. Next a layer of heavier material like crushed rock, perhaps a layer of pea gravel, then and a layer of sand. The role of the sand is to make a level field and to wick water up or down from the topsoil as needed by the artificial field system.

    So first you must determine the drainage capacity of your 'field'. To do that, all you need to do is to pour 2 litres of water onto your ground and roughly measure the time it takes for all traces of it to disappear. Then do that again in another area where the grass is good and compare the drainage times. That will tell you if the subsoil in the area of concern is draining more poorly then the area where things are good. If the drainage is ok, too quick or too slow will determine what is needed next.
     
  9. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Thanks for following up GreenGoose!
    OK, so it sounds like I am misunderstanding the role of sand - that its role is to wick, not necessarily prevent compaction. Does that mean you would disagree with Anderson Sod's recommendation of 6" of 50% sand/50% compost as a base?
    I did this and it took 3 minutes, approx.
     
  10. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    Sand is involved in the movement of water through a soil through capillary action from higher pressure to lower pressure so water may wick from grain to grain in any direction. In designed lawns like golf greens sand may also serve a purpose of levelling.

    Did Anderson's make that recommendation specifically for your situation after understanding it clearly? If so, I agree with them for your situation but would not apply it to all situations.

    You did not tell us what lies under your topsoil so we cann assess the drainage. And you gave 3 minutes as a rate for flow through but did not give a differential between satisfactory and unsatisfactory areas of your grass. Three minutes is a very slow rate suggesting poor drainage. My yard, moderately dry, would drain 2 litres in under 30 seconds, i believe.

    So, what is beneath your topsoil? Clay? Sand? Gravel,? or ?
     
  11. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    I think so.
    There is just a 150 sf area of grass in this situation and all of the grass is in poor condition, partly due to lack of maintenance. So I don't think I can give you a differential. The soil was damp when I did the test. The soil is a couple of feet over concrete, possibly with gravel on top of the concrete? It's in a courtyard over a parkade.
     
  12. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    I believe that the drainage is inadequate based on the information you have given. Does the underlying concrete have any slope, or is it flat?
     
  13. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Flat, although probably designed to drain somehow. If there is a slope it is subtle.
     
  14. GreenGoose

    GreenGoose Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Abbotsford
    I feel there is not much I can advise that will assure a good lawn unless drainage is adequate. Hopefully, the advice you have received from the Sod Farm will do it.
     
  15. easygardeningsecrets.blogspot.

    easygardeningsecrets.blogspot. Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Prescott, AZ U.S.
    Believe it or not, there are actually some completely natural products which most everyone already has available in thier homes that can produce phenomenal green results in your lawn! I used to struggle with gardening until I found two secrets which grow beautiful lawns and plants easily and naturally. I highly recommend my lawn care secrets as well as my recipe for the worlds best compost to anyone who wants to achieve spectacular results simply, inexpensively and naturally. I include the information on my website at www.easygardeningsecrets.blogspot.com Hope that you find this helpful. Best of luck to you and Happy Gardening!
     
  16. Don Ho

    Don Ho Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Edmonton, Canada
    It seems that the main point here is being ignored. Most lawn species, even the ones that are adapted to shade, require a minimum of 4-6 hours of direct sunlight for healthy growth (4 hours for the shade adapted species). Does the area receive that amount of sunshine?

    "soil is not very deep (in large planter over concrete)" Does this mean that the area is actually a large concrete container, or that the subsoil is concrete-like?
     
  17. flowmom

    flowmom Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    I don't think so. The area is directly adjacent to and north of a 3 storey wall, and there are nearby walls on the other 3 sides (courtyard). Sun angles in for part of the day, but not for 4-6 hours.
    The area is actually a large concrete planter, with soil a couple of feet deep (over waterproof membrane and actual concrete).
     
  18. Don Ho

    Don Ho Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Edmonton, Canada
    A beautiful, healthy turfgrass lawn will not be a possibility for your space, as the lack of sunlight precludes lawn grasses. Good choices would be converting the area to an artificial covering as a play area as you mentioned in your original post, or perhaps converting the area to a giant sandbox. Lack of sunlight and heavy use by children makes this a difficult area to grow any kind of groundcover.
     

Share This Page