I'll let this serve as my follow up for now. I have to think that most people are not growing a Kaffir Lime for the fruit. Very little is mentioned online about the fruit of this Lime, yet it seems the fragrance given off by the leaves, the oils from the crushed leaves and the rind used as zest for cooking and other uses such as for shampoos and adding fragrance to cleaning oils get all of the attention. It could be that the fruit is not ever sweet and it is that notion is what I want to work on and see for myself and experiment with. I have enough Citrus whereby going out and buying one tree just to say I have one is not a big deal with me any more which is one reason I've not ever had the Mexican Lime but I have bought that plant for other people in years past. I'd rather have friends or people I know well start a collection of Citrus and enjoy in the pleasure of growing them rather than me have every Citrus I know of and start afresh with newer introductions and add to my current Citrus forms. My favorites have always been, as a group, the fresh eating Oranges, the Blood Oranges and the Mandarins. Our Meyer Lemon was the only one of that sort that I needed or wanted but I have supplied others with all of the current forms of Lemons aside from the variegated Eureka. I do not believe at this time that other Citrus will produce as sparse a crop as a Kaffir Lime will being grown by itself. Even in the wild I believe this Lime does not produce bumper crops but as time goes on we may have ample crops for what we have planned to do with the fruit. Even though half of the world will not like this I still feel that a standard tree will produce more fruit per capita than most any dwarf form of Citrus will. For a long while the dwarf forms were not the same for quality of the fruit as compared to the standard trees. That is no longer true any more as the dwarf fruit can be just as good for quality as the standard Citrus trees are now. Grafting a section of another Citrus on the young wood of the host plant has had rather mixed results experimentally at a Field Station I know and even from growers nurseries. It is not something that people go out of their way to do any more as most of the time the grafted sections will not line up well with the host plants cambium. It is better to try to do that on older wood rather than one to two year old wood. Budding may work better for younger wood. Even then, will the graft or bud do what we want in that on one tree we can have a limb that is a Bearss Lime, one limb a Persian Lime, a third a Mexican Lime and the fourth a Kaffir Lime and have them grow at pretty much the same pace. I think that is something a hobbyist may want to try on their own but a nursery will not recommend doing it as it can almost be assured that some of the grafted or budded forms will not survive long unless we make many grafts or buds of each particular Lime, let say all four put on a Rangpur Lime host. The novelty of having multiple forms on one host tree has gone by the wayside for a few forms of other type trees in which it was thought the multiple grafts would lead to being quite popular which has not panned out over time. If it was me, I'd just have one variety per tree and go from there. In the winter of 1990 I lost several forms of dwarf Citrus that I had babied for over 10 years growing them in containers. I picked the wrong two years to plant them in the ground. After the initial freezing it took a while for me to get new growth on the trees that were hurt as none of them were killed off by the 6-10 degree weather we had here for 4-6 hours for a week of it in late December. I got ample new growth but it came late in the year and then the next Winter with similar yet slightly warmer temperatures killed off about half of my collection. It is that hesitancy to go through a similar situation in Canada or elsewhere is why I would be reluctant to plant certain dwarf forms outside again as the standard forms of those trees have shown to have more resistance to the cold than the dwarfs forms of those Citrus seem to have. Jim
Jim, when planting citrus in planters what type of soil would work best and what type of planter? Ceramic or plastic? I have read mixing a planter mix with redwood shavings and some sand is good for citrus plants that need well draining locations When bringing the plants indoors for the winter, I have a unheated, attached (enclosed) garage - which does not freeze but is quite cool and a south facing window and supplimentary grow lights - would that work ? or should i bring them into the heated portion of the house (little direct sunlight but next to a window) with supplimentary light? Or do you have any other Ideas? Thanks, Greg
In the old days standard scions were grafted onto dwarfing rootstock. It is still done today for Apples and Citrus among others. I like the semi dwarfs better as I like it when they get up to 10-12 feet tall and stop and then start to fill out. Easier to take care of and overall less dense of a tree than a standard which lets in more light into more of the tree (show a photo sometime of your goblet shape). For growing in a greenhouse I would go with a semi dwarf or a standard grafted on dwarfing rootstock and the Citrange is a good root stock for that. Even a true dwarf would work just fine. I think for growing in a home with artificial light and reflected light coming in through windows for much of the year the true dwarfs are real tough to beat. They are easily portable to place outdoors when the weather permits, bring back inside for the Winter and they are nice looking trees for most of the year. Whether they bloomed or not people seem to enjoy them and as a houseplant I find it a novel idea. The hard part I think will be getting the indoor grown Citrus to bloom for us but I think with some trial and error, moving the plants around inside if need be chasing the light with true varietals we have a much better chance of getting these plants to bloom indoors than people will that are growing plants from seed as some of the seedlings may never bloom for them. Junglekeeper, if you can grow Michelias you should be able to grow most any Citrus you want. You may not want to have Citrus that require heat to ripen though. Grow lights on Citrus, I have not done that but I do not have any real worries about it. A cool location would be better than growing the Citrus in a home as I worry about humidity and fungus diseases that can spread much faster indoors from companion plants than I would Citrus grown by themselves. I do not know the amount of light required for Citrus under grow lights. I guess that is an issue I'll have to check out sometime. For growing Lemons, Limes and even some Oranges in cool temperatures will not hurt them as those forms of Citrus are not as fussy as most any Grapefruit would be for wanting heat for the fruit to ripen. Citrus do not like their feet to be wet for long periods of time so planted in the ground we do not plant them in soils that will retain lots of water or will not drain well. I would go with ground Fir bark as my first choice rather than use Redwood shavings for my mix. Ground Fir and Pine tilings would work well if you can get them. I think you can use the Redwood shavings along with ground Fir bark but make that mix 3 to 1 Fir to Redwood. Some people like having about 10-20% fine sand, such as beach sand or better yet silt in their soil mixes for containers. I think you can get by with a nursery grade potting soil without peat moss in it, add in some silt to that mix and be just fine. Here now I am using a potting soil, added in some Fir bark and some silt to the mix and am real pleased with it. I get fast enough drainage yet I also get some water holding capacity so that I can go 3-5 days in between hose waterings. For a greenhouse that is going to be watered more often than I water then I would want some perlite in my soil mix. As long as we do not over water the Citrus and we do not use a lot of peat moss that has the ability to compact we should be okay but the key ingredients to me are the Fir bark and some silt, beach sand if silt is not available. A good sandy loam may be just as good as either soil but do not use a heavy clay if you are growing these plants indoors or in a greenhouse. For containers I would use either large wooden boxes, decorative or not or large standard black plastic nursery cans. Fancy ceramic pots are okay but many of them any more either only have one small drainage hole or they have none. We want more than one hole, preferably three of them for a ceramic pot to be used for Citrus. Even the dwarf and semi dwarf forms can stay in a 10 gallon to a 15 gallon container respectively for several years. 10 gallon Redwood tubs really make a nice statement with a good dwarf Citrus in it with some fruit on the tree. Jim
I think the kumquat is the only questionable one in my collection. It'll be a good test though; if I can get that to flower and fruit, then I have enough heat to be able to grow just about any citrus. Ironically, if I'm successful with the citrus I may have to get rid of my Michelias to make room for them. Now if got rid of my couch...
Additions to the Four Winds Citrus Mandarins. These below are all hybrids I've seen available in the past from Four Winds. All of these have been seen offered for sale the last few days from various sources. Fairchild (Clementine x Orlando Tangelo) Fremont (Clementine x Ponkan) Honey (King x Willowleaf) Kara (King x Owari Satsuma) Kinnow (King x Willowleaf) In regards to the Murcott as listed in a former post it should be noted that the Murcott is also known as the Florida Honey. Jim
Citrus varieties available at Logee's Greenhouses come in 2.5" and 4" pots. I assume they are rooted cuttings based on the small pot sizes. Are there concerns growing such plants as they don't have the benefits of a grafted rootstock?
I think most of the liners being offered by nurseries are budded Citrus and came in from other nurseries. I just do not envision East Coast nurseries growing their own Citrus, as their doing that and growing their own Fruit & Nut Trees was never standard practice for them in the nursery trade. Grafted liners are still available from select nurseries here. I am not sure about Florida growing sources but still many of the grafted and budded liners are originating from West Coast nurseries and then shipped out to elsewhere. Cutting grown Citrus are not seen much any more for semi dwarf forms of Citrus, although some nurseries will still take cuttings for rooting certain standard forms of Citrus. In the olden days what was sold as being a dwarf Citrus was actually a semi dwarf form instead. I would be careful and mindful of buying liners grown from seed from any source as there has to be a guarantee somewhere that a seedling Kara Mandarin, for example, will ever retain the fruit quality characteristics of its parent. Then again, another concern is was the fruit of the parent any good? The seedling issue to me is a crap shoot and is the least desirable means to secure a tried and true, proven Citrus variety. Jim
Just a quick note: There is a Cocktail Citrus being sold. I saw it at a Lowe's in Merced that is a three way graft of a Pixie Mandarin, Lane Late Navel Orange and an Improved Meyer Lemon all on the same tree. The nursery where those trees came from is this one below. http://www.wncitrus.com Early last week I guessed right that some stores would be getting their Citrus soon. I visited three Lowe's in three cities, three Orchard Supply Hardware stores in three cities and four Home Depots in three cities after an e-mail back and forth from Four Winds telling me of some of their mass merchandizer nursery retail sources. We bought our trees for the misses at one Orchard Supply and two Lowe's. In a week she has gone from having no Citrus to having ten of them, two semi-dwarf Blood Oranges and eight dwarf Citrus. One Bearss Lime with four fruit on it, the only tree with fruit on it, one Mexican or Key Lime, one Improved Meyer Lemon, one variegated Eureka (I bought one for me also), one Honey Mandarin, one Kinnow Mandarin, one Murcott Mandarin and one Cara Cara Orange. I have not seen a Kaffir Lime or either form of the Persian Limes. Have not seen an Etrog either but have seen a Buddha's Hand at an Orchard Supply in Clovis. I'll visit some retail nurseries I know this week that may have some of the specialty Citrus that I want the misses to have. I have to backtrack a little as one of the soil mixes I've seen a lot of this last week had about 40% Redwood shavings (not Redwood compost) in the soil mix. I am not sure how this will work for cool weather areas but I've used it in the past in my mixes for plants when I wanted quick drainage when my Forest Humus supplier ran out and could not order any more for a while of the Sequoia brand I liked so well and have used for years as my main component for my potting soils. Hope all of you do get some Citrus to grow on and enjoy having. Jim
Jim, You're killing me, telling me about the great selection and availability of citrus (not to mention other plants) down there. They're just a little harder to come by up here in the Great White North.
Hi Junglekeeper: If it were a workable option I'd get what you wanted for you and send them up to you. I was not trying to "kill" you or anyone else as I realize the hassle some of you have but that will change soon enough. Just get a following going for some of these plants and they will find their way up to you. Citrus want to go to good homes and the Citrus nursery growers (are a little more caring in this regard) really want the same thing for their plants. Now the misses feels a little overwhelmed by it all but I solved her container dilemma today finding for her ten 15 gallon cans of mine that were doing nothing at the moment. Look at things this way, some of you are willing to grow these plants when so many others would not dare to try. Don't think for a second that your attempts will not go unnoticed down here. There are a few people rooting for all of you to succeed. We are not out of the woods either come Winter time as two Winters in particular in the past wiped out a lot of Citrus here, even in the zone 9 Western Garden Book thermal belts. Jim
(You're killing me == You're making me laugh) I was amused by your unintended description of being 'awash in citrus'. I'm not complaining. Actually I feel rather fortunate since, with some driving around, I did find just about all that I wanted 8) You guys, being in the 'shopping center' of the plant world, have so much to choose from. Lucky b*stards!
Jim, what you see as an '8' is me smiling (tilt your head to the left to see). By coincidence I actually do have 8 citrus plants, 10 if you count the two unidentified seed-grown plants: Calamondin Bearss Lime Kaffir Lime Eureka Lemon Improved Meyer Lemon Lisbon Lemon Ponderosa Lemon Nagami Kumquat They should do all right once they get established. The kumquat was losing leaves but I think it'll pull through. There won't be much to report this year. Next year should be much more interesting. What do you have in your collection?
Below is my list of Citrus that I have here. No new additions last week for the misses. Real glad you got a Kaffir Lime. We call it Kiefer Lime here. Have not seen one available yet. Marsh Pink Grapefruit Star Ruby Grapefruit (some people call it Texas Star Ruby) Meyer Lemon (old form) Cleopatra Mandarin Murcott Mandarin Nepolitana Satsuma Mandarin Sampson Tangelo Temple Tangor Ruby Blood Orange Tarocco Blood Orange Fukumoto Navel Orange Trovita Sweet Orange Jim
What is your opinion of the Trovita orange? I considered getting one but for some reason it comes from Monrovia only as a patio tree.
My Trovita Orange has been a good one for me for fresh eating or for juicing it. The nice thing about this Orange is that for you it may not need as much heat as a Washington Navel will want during the growing season. Mine ripens in the late Spring here, later than a Washington Navel will as we want them picked off the trees long before Christmas. I think for you that a Trovita will be a good choice if you want to have an Orange. The only other Orange I can think of that can handle as much indoor growing would be the Washington Navel and the Trovita is a seedling selection from a Washington Navel. For a patio tree an Orange, Sweet, Navel or a Blood, would be my first choice to have to be honest. The sweet fragrance liberated from the Oranges when in bloom is arguably the most aromatic and also the most pleasing of all the Citrus to most people. Jim
Do you actually detect a difference in the fragrances between citrus species (e.g. lemon vs. orange) or is the difference only in intensity?
Do you actually detect a difference in the fragrances between citrus species (e.g. lemon vs. orange) or is the difference only in intensity? I can detect the difference in the fragrances and so can bees. How much Orange honey do you see in Canada? We see quite a bit here. On the reverse side we do not see much Lime, Lemon, Grapefruit or Citron honey in the stores. I am not trying to be facetious as the fragrances given off by Oranges, around where I am, many acres of Valencias and Navels, will get your attention right now. If you are downwind or right next to the trees when they are in bloom the fragrance is quite sweet and is potent. The intensity is much more pronounced in comparison to Lemons, Limes, Grapefruits and Citrons. Essentially they all, Citrus, have their own fragrance but some are sweeter and stronger than others are but yes, there is a noticeable difference in the aroma other than the potency of an Orange and a Lemon fragrance. Jim
Interesting. Now I'll have to get a Trovita to experience the difference. Hope Monrovia will have one in bush form next year.
Yes it has been interesting reading your discussions! I too would be interested in this trovita orange too so if you find one who will bring one in for you let me know the particulars...probably a 5 gallon size would be more instant gratification....also I am still interested in a Owari Satsuma.... Greg
Jim, have you ever smelled the flowers of 'Bouquet de Fleurs' sour orange? According to Sunset it is the most fragrant of all citrus and its flowers are used in making perfume. Unfortunately for me it does not appear to be a good candidate for indoors because of its higher heat requirement.
I do not know if the Bouquet de Fleurs is the most fragrant as the Sour Oranges as a group all are known for being among the most fragrant of all the Citrus. The Seville has been used as a street tree in areas of Southern California. Yes, I've smelled the Bouquet de Fleurs. Our next door neighbor has a Chinotto I found for them several years ago. They make marmalade from it. This link for the Bergamot lists some of the uses for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamot_orange The Seville has its own uses as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oranges Here is a link that will show the shape of a Bouquet de Fleurs tree. http://www.citrusvariety.ucr.edu/index2.php?content=citrus/sour_oranges.html You might be able to grow these indoors. I've seen the Bouquet de Fleurs grown as a houseplant. Jim
Growing it is one thing. Getting it to flower and fruit is another. Was the owner successful in that regard? I'll put this plant down as a 'maybe' for next year depending on how I do with this year's acquisitions. Collection Update The Nagami kumquat suffered a terminal setback when the weather turned hot; it eventually lost all its leaves followed by stem dieback. RIP. Its roots may have been compromised before I got it (which would explain its much reduced price). One of the two main stems of my Meyer lemon is dying from gummosis or from its treatment. I think the last spot I treated cut off much of the sap flow. I may have to amputate it in hopes of saving the other. It may be difficult since there's an infection just below the 'V' formed by the two stems. I'll scrape that area clean and paint with Bordeaux and hope for the best. Worst comes to worst I'll still have some rooted cuttings. The Lisbon lemon, which was quite wilted when purchased, is still sulking. The rest are coming along, all having put on new growth.
I saw a Nagami kumquat and a Owari satsuma at Dykhoff nursery in N van a week ago. I was going to wait for my Owari unil next year. My meyer lemon has grape size fruit on it and lots of buds and blossoms. The eureka lemon has only one very small lemon on it. The calamondin is going crazy ( its the one I bought at home depot a month ago) it has grown about 5 inches in height has 25 mature oranges on it an 60 or so buds and blossoms. Now only if they were more palatable to eat..... What is gumosis? . How big is the Meyor lemon plant?
The Meyer is of the size that typically comes in a 3-gal pot - not too big. I don't know how it got infected since I didn't get the trunk wet or overwater the plant. Gummosis is a condition caused by a species of Phytophthora fungus (P. citrophthora or P. parasitica) which infects the bark and causes sap to ooze out. The condition of the tree deteriorates as the infection gets worse. Death occurs when the disease girdles the trunk. Hope I explained it right. My Eureka appears to be best of the recent acquisitions despite being the smallest; I think it, and its offspring, will do very well. I've also noticed a strong growth flush with my Calamondin as well. It's starting to bush out from all the pruning I did earlier in the spring. Did you end up buying the Owari? What can you tell me about the Nagami kumquat? Bush or patio tree? Size? Price? Grower? I'm not sure about getting a replacement since I suspect there won't be enough heat for it to flower and fruit since it'll be indoors all the time. If I decide to get another kumquat I think it'll be a Meiwa; it's sweeter and is supposed to perform better in cool conditions. Another one for the 'maybe' list.