Cedar rose tree - Deodar?

Discussion in 'Gymnosperms (incl. Conifers)' started by Mary Kay Weston, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. Mary Kay Weston

    Mary Kay Weston Member

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    Years ago, I discovered a marvelous huge old tree on the grounds of an old hotel in Hampton Virginia. It's cones were quite flat and looked like a carved wooden flowers. I've been looking for a specimen of the tree ever since. Shortly after I discovered it, the hotel and the tree perished in a fire. No one knew what kind of tree it was. Someone mentioned deodar cedar, but when I went to references on deodar tree descriptions, they show regular egg shaped cones. I've located pictures on the net of the flower cones and they are referred to as cedar roses on a few natural material craft sites, and again there was a mention of deodar cedar as the source.

    Does anyone know what my cedar rose growing tree can be, and a source for it. I really loved that tree and would love to have one. It was spectacular.
     
  2. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    Could it be that you are only seeing what is left of the cone not the whole cone?

    deodar cedar cones are wrapped tightly into an egg shaped cone. this is held together by turgor (water) pressure. as the water leaves the cones (i.e. the cones dry up or are roased by heat) they will unravel spirally often leaving the last few layers attached to the base of the cone. this looks like a single or wild rose.

    Just some thoughts. do you have a photo you could post?
     
  3. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Cedar cones disintegrate when mature; the 'roses' are the tops of the cones that get pushed off when the cones dry out and disintegrate. I'll post a photo tomorrow (too dark now for photos here)

    You can get the 'roses' from any species of cedar, it doesn't have to be a Deodar Cedar
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Cones of golden larch (Pseudolarix) look like flowers. But you said web sites attributed cedar roses to the Deodar cedar. With the partly shattered true cedar (Cedrus) cones there is a layer of cone scales left at the bottom of the rachis (central axis), suggesting one of those desktop spikes on a stand that notes or restaurant orders are pushed onto.
     
  5. Mary Kay Weston

    Mary Kay Weston Member

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    That may be it! I might have just been lucky seeing the tree at just that stage. It was late fall. There is a good photo of a cedar rose at hppt://www.piercearnold.co.uk/product.php?pic=87 but it's copyrighted so I'm not sure about copying it to this page. Would you mind going to the site to see if we are talking about the same thing? Thanks for the help.
     
  6. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Left - intact cedar cone
    Right - broken cedar cone, with 'rose' above
    Centre - base of a broken cedar cone (as described by Ron B), and loose scales and seeds

    BTW, to prove they don't have to be from Deodar Cedar, these pics are of Lebanon Cedar cones
     

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  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Looks like M. "rose" to the occasion and put this picture together.
     
  9. Mary Kay Weston

    Mary Kay Weston Member

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    You've solved my mystery! I'm feeling a little foolish for not being able to figure it out myself, but very thankful that you three guys are out there. I'm going to plant several cedars this fall, if they ever get to the point of growing "Cedar roses", I'll use them to make a wreath for each of you! It may be years, but if you send me an address at rpweston@juno.com, I promise to keep track of it. Special thanks to Michael for taking the time to photograph them. I'm very impressed with the knowledge and speed with which you answered my question. Once again, I'm in awe of the power of the net to bring people together. Isn't it grand!
     
  10. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Apparently Cedrus has only two to four species, depending on the author. At what age do they produce cones, and are they aromatic? Last week I nearly bought a Cedrus libani var. brevifolia (not grafted) for my mom, but was informed that it is not hardy to zone 6. This morning I read that some sources note it as hardy to zone 6. Michael, I just saw your page at www.pinetum.org (Cones - other Pinaceae), where the cones of Keteleeria are on the same page as those of C. libani. Do the cones of Keteleeria produce roses as well? I realize that they are extremely rare in western horticulture, but do we know at what age they produce cones? In North America, there is a K. davidiana at Huntington, which was planted before 1943 and was measured to be 64' in 1993 (Jacobson 1996), and there is a young K. evelyniana at UWBG - accession 1998.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The quickest and easiest thing would be to gather them from beneath existing large specimens in parks and gardens where they are hanging over sidewalks, in Seattle for instance Himalayan cedars are very common.
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Laurie,

    Keteleeria doesn't disintegrate at maturity, so doesn't have 'roses'; it is on the same page as Cedrus mainly for convenience. If I ever manage to get a Cathaya cone, it'll might go on the same 'small genera' page, too, even though it is more closely related to Larix and Pseudotsuga.

    If you want a zone 6 cedar, go for C. libani var. stenocoma, it's the only one reliably hardy in 6.

    In the UK climate, cedars (all taxa) rarely produce any cones before about 25-30 years, and not prolifically until more like 40+; they might start a little earlier in warmer climates. Sorry, don't know when Keteleeria start coning, they don't do well here at all (summers much too cold for it).
     
  13. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Have you seen this article from Quarryhill: http://www.quarryhillbg.org/Articles/Three%20Conifers/Three%20Conifers.htm? It sounds like obtaining a cone of Cathaya agrophylla is going to be a challenge. I have contacted the Huntington Library in the past with no luck; perhaps I should be persistent. The K. davidiana specimen had cones by at least 1996 (>50 yrs). A local nurseryman here collected seeds, with or without permission, and successfully propagated it.
     
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Yep, seen the article, thanks! I guess it is a matter of waiting until the cultivated Cathaya plants are old enough to have cones (maybe not too long now, some of them must be approaching 15 years old by now)

    There is only one mature Keteleeria davidiana in Britain, close to the south coast (Wakehurst Place, Sussex; there used to be two there, but one blew down in the October 1987 storm), they were planted in about 1910 from E H Wilson collections, and did/do bear cones after hot summers, but at what age they first started I don't know. The survivor is 12m tall at 95 years - very slow growth compared to the Huntingdon tree! Also the cones they produce never mature properly; cones harvested in October-November (photo on the page you saw) were soft and green, the seeds with watery endosperm similar to e.g. an Abies cone picked in July 3 months before ripening.
     
  15. Zippiknits

    Zippiknits Member

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  16. vtwins2002

    vtwins2002 New Member

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    there is a tree here in Castro valley ca , found it while walking my dog ,
     

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