Burgundy Lace vs Sherwood Flame

Discussion in 'Maples' started by PoorOwner, May 6, 2006.

  1. PoorOwner

    PoorOwner Active Member 10 Years

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    Most literature claims that they are "similar" and "almost identical", except Sherwood Flame holds red better in summer heat.

    Well I found the leaves are not that similar. Burgundy Lace lobes are more deeply divided and Sherwood flame leaves are less serrated it seems. I found B.L. to have a darker purple color too.

    The grow habit, B.L is more spreading and slightly weeping and S.F. is more upright.

    It is often said that S.F. is a superior plant, I don't agree as it seems to me B.L is more lacy and the growth habit is quite unique. They are just different and could each have a different role in the landscape.

    Just wanted to know what do you guys think?
     
  2. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Burgundy Lace would not be superior because it is spreading as that would be a pretty typical growth habit for a matsumarae variety. Sherwood Flame really should not be considered when a comparison is being made for all the reasons you have clearly and pretty accurately stated. For and upright tree, Sherwood Flame is outstanding, but for a slightly different effect, Burgundy Lace is going to be a nice tree.

    The problem that seems to be occurring is that we cannot find true plants of Burgundy Lace these days as so many of them are seedling selections, starting purple and showing green undertones very early. Burgundy Lace, the true plant, should hold its color.

    Also consider Oregon Sunset, Suminagashi, and maybe Hessei in your comparison. It is pretty easy to liken the situation with the dilution of Burgundy Lace to what has happened with Bloodgood and Oshio beni.
     
  3. Layne Uyeno

    Layne Uyeno Active Member 10 Years

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    Hi,

    I prefer Sherwood flame myself. I like how the lobes lie closer together than Burgundy lace and it looks more feathery. But that's just my personal opinion. BL looks more delicate in some ways. I had a chance to buy a unlabled SF last year but didn't...wish I did. I have to be careful with my selections...I NEED a yard not a balcony! :-\

    Layne
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I like both Maples and have been around both for many years
    both grown as container plants for a long period of time and
    planted in the ground.

    People should not ever state that one is better than the other
    when some of them have not grown either form. There is a
    factor that makes one better for the long term both for use
    for container growing and once in the ground than the other
    and the more knowledgeable people in plants have conveniently
    neglected to mention it and that is which one of these two is
    the cleaner Maple (freer of disease issues than the other one).
    To not even mention the most important growing aspect, the
    one area of concern that will determine how long the Maple
    will live, all things being equal, tells me the person has little
    to no practical knowledge of the Maple.

    The next major factor to consider is knowing some of the
    history of both Maples and how they grow in a variety of
    cultural settings such as in London, Eugene, Vancouver,
    Fresno, Hayward, Aukland, Canberra, Osaka, Boskoop,
    Nancy and Lisbon to name just a few areas where Maples
    either can be grown or are currently grown. Which of
    these two Maples is more likely to do better than the other
    and live longer and really none of us knows that answer for
    all of the above locations but we can predict with some
    applied knowledge of these two Maples which one is more
    likely to grow better than the other and the primary reason
    is which Maple has historically been a cleaner Maple than
    the other making one much less fussy a grower than the
    other Maple generally has been for most people.

    When we think in terms of the delight of the plant we do not
    always see the drawbacks of the Maple in question. One of
    the most difficult questions to answer that I have encountered
    was from someone in this forum that asked me about the life
    expectancy of these plants (Maples), regardless of whether
    they are on their own roots or were grafted. In the case of
    Burgundy Lace as opposed to Sherwood Flame, which one
    is more likely to live longer for us than the other one will?
    The answer is not so tough as a Sherwood Flame is more
    likely to live longer as a container plant or planted in a
    landscape than a Burgundy Lace will. Why? Burgundy
    Lace has a history of having more internal Verticillium
    in the plant than Sherwood Flame has. This fact by itself
    does not limit the growth potential of the Maple and how
    it will grow in a variety of areas but when we also include
    the fact that Burgundy Lace also has a higher degree of
    incidence of Tight Bark that invades the plant, then having
    a higher degree of Vertcillium in the plant along with the
    propensity of having more dieback due to Tight Bark, then
    we can safely state that in most Maple growing areas of the
    world that Sherwood Flame historically has been the cleaner
    Maple of the two.

    The next most important aspect is are we sure the Maple we
    bought as being a Burgundy Lace is a Burgundy Lace or is the
    Sherwood Flame just a seedling from an old Sherwood Flame?
    Now, we are into what will concern most of you for the long
    term in that through grafting we have helped both Maples but
    at the same time we have hurt both Maples when we have used
    less than desirable or what we used to call "row run" green
    seedlings to graft our scions onto. Now, we are into how we
    get and see the lethal form of Verticillium, the same kind that
    Agrios in his Plant Pathology books writes about and the same
    form of Verticillium that causes quick decline in our Maples.
    The form of Verticillium that comes from our soils and not
    having resistant rootstocks to help ward off that pathogen.

    What many of you do not know is that the old Burgundy Lace,
    the Maple that was around in the 60's and sold by a leading
    wholesale nursery starting in the 70's was a cleaner plant than
    they have had for sale for several years. It used to be back in
    1975 that when we went into a retail nursery we saw Burgundy
    Lace being one of the most available Maples that we could buy.
    Now, we go into our local retail nurseries that still have plants
    from that same wholesale nursery and we may not see any
    Burgundy Lace, their main seller for many years, in the nursery
    for sale. The cleaner plants of Burgundy Lace are no longer
    easily seen which is why we seldom see Burgundy Lace available
    like it used to be. Years ago the wholesale nursery learned that
    their Maple was not doing well for the long term but more
    importantly for the short term also in a host of growing locations
    and have cut way back in their propagation of the Maple, almost
    to the point whereby we have to practically special order the Maple
    in now as opposed to seeing this Maple almost everywhere we
    went to see and buy plants for many years.

    Now, we see the bastardized version of Burgundy Lace offered
    for sale if we are lucky to see one and what we see is a seedling
    selection form that came out of Canby, Oregon, back in the 80's
    (I bought one of them last year for me with a Suminagashi tag
    on it) that has held its own well enough but the wholesale nursery
    that had the market cornered on Burgundy Lace for what seemed
    like forever is reluctant to sell it and now many retail nurseries
    almost have to special order it in when for many years that Maple
    was one of the main staples for all retail Maple sales. All we have
    to do is step back from Burgundy Lace and ask ourselves where
    are the old plants of a Maple that was one of the three leading
    sellers in numbers of plants sold on the West Coast for almost
    30 years? We almost have to go out of California to see most
    of them now and at one time virtually all sales of Burgundy
    Lace sold worldwide were sold in California alone. Where did
    all of those plants go and where are they today? I know of
    some 60 year old Burgundy Lace that were raised and grown
    right here in Fresno (had their roots in Santa Rosa that came
    into that nursery in the 30’s as live plants) that are still around
    but I am not at liberty to post photos of them in this forum.
    The plants are not mine. I also know of some more than 40
    plus year old Sherwood Flame. My Sherwood Flame has
    been in the ground for 14 years and was no less than a 12
    year old plant when I bought it.

    I am sorry to say that Mr. Vertrees was dead wrong that these
    two Maples are not even close to being identical in the Spring
    for leaf color. As the leaf emerges, yes they look the same, as
    the leaves expand and then from then on no. Even now one of
    them is a rust red in bright sun and the other is still a purple red,
    albeit fading a little now, in bright sun and how do I know this?
    All I have to do is walk outside and see both of them as well as
    the Burgundy Lace seedling selection that does not show leaf
    scorch as readily for us when grown here like the old Maple will.
    We have to protect the old Maple from our hot winds or it will
    badly burn on us here. The seedling selection in this respect is
    an improvement but the seedling will show more than one color
    starting in mid Spring for the red whereas the old Maple keeps
    a more even shade of purple red until the Summer or when the
    temperatures get over 95 degrees in a dry climate, then it fades
    in color fast if the leaves do not burn up first.

    I can recommend Iseli nursery for Sherwood Flame also. Their
    Maple is the same one I have.

    Jim
     
  5. oscar

    oscar Active Member

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    Do all maples have internal verticiiium?
     
  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here is a plant I acquired in July of 2004 that is still quite small. It origin is uncertain, but I believe it came from Stanley and Sons Nursery. The photos are posted in sequence of seasonal maturity, the last photo taken on 9/2/05. This last photo shows just a little leaf burn on a few leaves on the left of the plant, but otherwise it held up through the summer pretty well. We can see some multiple tones of red in the spring color as well as some green coming trough on a few leaves. If this plant should actually be any form of Brugundy Lace, it would presumably be the seedling form. Based on what Jim has said, that would explain its ability to hold up pretty well in the summer heat.

    I have not run into this plant for sale much, but recently saw a half-dozen or so 3gal plants for sale and they looked awful--suffering terribly from verticillium, disfigured and sure to be dead in a couple of years. The foliage was close enough to say they were some form of Burgundy Lace.

    Oscar,

    I can give you my opinon about Verticillium, but at this time we are going to have to respectfully fight with the people that want to say the primary disease troubling maples is not verticillium, or there are a host of other pathogens that casue dieback and we cannot know what it is. In addition, I would assume that we would have to distinguish how our plant is being infected. Is it a infected undstock and is that because the parent was infected or was it from the soil. Is it our scion or did the grafted plant pick it up after the fact some how.

    All of that aside, and not to get too far off topic, Verticllium seems to be so widespread now, and I have no doubt that it is just that, that we are best served to BELIEVE that each and every plant is infected in to some degree. It may not ever show as sign or it may show limited or severe signs, but either way we should treat it as if at any minute it could turn on us and soon be gone. Unfortunately we have to minimize stress in our maples and keep them happy to keep them for a long time. This also makes small plants a big risk if we buy them that way as they will more quickly die on us and with so little wood to work with we will be hard-pressed to save them. This also makes many maples, depending on how dirty they are, unsuitable for container culture and the sooner we are able to plant them in the ground, the better. This discussion goes hand in hand with the tight bark condition even though I did not mention it in the discussion.
     

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  7. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Acer palmatum 'Burgundy Lace' - Brian Mulligan (1958); Seattle, Washington, USA. "A splended cultivar of US origin. It has beautiful, deeply divided leaves, 7-lobed, serrate along the entire margin, about 8-10 cm across. The shrubs grow moderately as high and wide, usually 4-5 m as a mature plant. The color holds very well in regions with a rather moist climate." Van Gelderen et al., Maples of the World (Timber Press 1994). "Introduced by Vermeulen & Son, New Jersey, in 1958. Given an Award of Merit by the Royal Boskoop Horticultural Society in 1977 and the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit in 1993." Van Gelderen et al, Maples for Gardens (Timber Press 1999).

    Acer palmatum 'Sherwood Flame' - William Curtis (circa 1970). Sherwood, Oregon, USA. "A remarkable cultivar, very much like 'Burgundy Lace'. In spring and summer it is impossible to distinguish them. In the late summer, however, 'Sherwood Flame' keeps its color, while 'Burgundy Lace' has a tendency to become "greener." In the coastal climates of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Great Britain, there is practically no difference throughout the year, but in the Pacific Northwest of the United States and Canada, the difference is clearly visible. ... It was a chance seedling from 'Burgundy Lace' ... highly recommended." Van Gelderen (1994). "Leaves deeply divided to the base, dark purple, not fading to a lighter color, fall color absent in maritime climates but can be crimson-red in dry situations." Van Gelderen (1999).
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    The bls01b photo shows the color of what Burgundy
    Lace looks like right now in Fresno with the purple
    red colored leaves in the upper portion of the photo.
    The two color red of the seedling is clearly shown
    in this photo.

    The shf photos are of my Sherwood Flame that came
    from Henderson Experimental Gardens. I believe I
    mentioned a rust red. Well, we can clearly see it in the
    undertone. This color as seen now will hold throughout
    most of the Summer for us.

    No, Oscar, not all Japanese Maples have the internal
    Verticillium in their systems as seedlings grown on
    their own roots will not have it. Unless they came into
    contact with the pathogen in the soil or came in contact
    with a grafted scion or the seedling was later propagated
    though budding. We used to bud a few Japanese and
    Full Moon Maples during the Summer from June to as
    late as September.

    Jim
     

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  9. PoorOwner

    PoorOwner Active Member 10 Years

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    I have been trying to find what a "real" burgundy lace looks like, the different forms would explain my trouble. Here is mine, Any idea what form this one might be? It looks a bit different from your pictures, mine seem to have narrower lobes.

    Thanks
     

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