Black marks all over the trunks

Discussion in 'Maples' started by pphdam, Oct 17, 2022.

  1. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    Hi, would anyone advise what these black marks are and how to treat them? Have just noted them on the trunks of my Red Pygmy, Koto No Ito and Inaba Shidare?

    Thanks

    P
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    16,011
    Likes Received:
    13,529
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Hi P IMO the first two Red Pygmy and Koto no it is just aging bark and nothing to worry about. But photo 3 Inaba shidare, I'm thinking verticulum. Has it produced more seeds this year or wilted in any way ? Or a particular branch not leafed out the same as others have done? Also some established maples can live with verticulum for many years and just show markings on the bark during high stress times. A cross section from pruning will give a better idea. ( Black markings ). Do clean your secataurs after doing this with rubbing alcohol.
    I don't think it's insect cause btw.
     
    pphdam and maf like this.
  3. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,183
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    I agree the first two are probably nothing to worry about. They might even be caused by sunburn if that side of the tree receives strong direct sun.

    The third one is more worrying. I am inclined more towards believing it is a bacterial infection rather than verticillium wilt, but you never know. It almost looks like an open wound to the 7 o'clock position from the vee in the trunk, and if so, it could have been caused by bacteria killing the cambium or (if it was originally mechanical damage) it could have been the entry point for bacteria. Not much practical help I know, but it does not look that bad yet so if the tree is otherwise healthy I would just wait and see what happens...
     
    pphdam and AlainK like this.
  4. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,698
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    I agree with Derek and maf about the first two : nothing to worry about IMO.
    And yes, I think it might be a bacterial infection on the 3rd one, easier to cure than verticillium (copper).
     
    pphdam and maf like this.
  5. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    Derek, maf and AlainK, many thanks for the advice.

    It is good to know that two are healthy. For Inaba Shidare, I think it is still young (maybe about 5 year old) and have not seen any seeds yet. The tree looks healthy and its branches are not wilted, as it can be seen from the photos taken in late summer and a few weeks ago. The black marks are near Y shape of the main trunk, so probably not an option to have a cross section pruning. Do you think Copper Sulphate or Bordeaux Mixture treatment would help? Thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

    AlainK likes this.
  6. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    16,011
    Likes Received:
    13,529
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Copper sulphate is an option, but if Verticulum then nothing will help. But give it a try and watch and wait.
     
    pphdam and AlainK like this.
  7. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,407
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    I’m going to say something slightly out of kilter to what @maf @Acerholic and @AlainK have said: 1. perfectly fine 2. I dont like the look of, it’s different to 1. I think the black rings are live infection, with dead bark in the centre. I have a Sango Kaku with something similar and whilst it’s growing, it suffers with dueback…more than any other SK I have.
     
    pphdam likes this.
  8. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    Thank you, Derek. Let's hope it is not Verticulum. The tree is one of my favourites, I would be sad to loose it.
     
    Acerholic likes this.
  9. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    Dicky5ash, thank you for the advise. Now I look at no 2 again, it is indeed very different from no 1 and could be inflection also. Did you give your tree any treatment? Thanks
     
  10. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,183
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England
    A distinct possibility and worth keeping an eye on. Could also just be sunburnt young bark in the process of forming scar tissue.

    It is also worth remembering that some plants are just randomly weak and sickly and will be hit hard by minor infections that a strong tree could shrug off without missing a beat.
     
    Acerholic, pphdam and dicky5ash like this.
  11. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

    Messages:
    1,407
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    Location:
    Northampton Uk
    The issue is not on the main truck on the SK but on multiple branches..it’s probably a 15year old tree..I’ve removed some branches that looked worst affected but not all of them..

    As @maf says it could be sunburn..but worth keeping a close eye. I bought a terrible looking 20 year old Tsuma Gaki a few years ago..that had awfully sunburnt branches, severe dieback you name it..it has totally transformed in 3 years and I think will continue to do so.. so I wouldn’t be too despondent!
     
  12. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    @maf and @dicky5ash, thank for the info.

    I agree sunburn could be another one to consider as we had a very hot summer this year. I will keep an eye on them.
     
    AlainK likes this.
  13. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    Bordeaux sous-west of France
    I disagree a Verticillium diagnoses. Sunburn on that photo 3 is not so clear.

    observe that there are 2 small wounds on the trunk. They cause a disorder in the descending sap circuit.
    Some sap circuits are abandoned and turn black, this is not a disease. This is a case that I have already explained on your forum.

    The blackening of the cambium is not always a sign of a disease, it is first of all the death of the cambium. That is the définition or the rule.
    The cambium dies first when it is no longer supplied by the descending sap.

    When pruning a large branch, black sometimes occurs above the cut, this is because the sap has to divert to descend.
    Ditto for an insect gallery or a necrosis.

    When you cut an jung extension, you leave a heel. This heel blackens because it is no longer supplied by the descending sap.
    This last example makes it possible to understand that the cambium dies without disease, simply because an accident deprives the canals of sapwood.

    I never make automatic gender diagnosis as symptom = a alone disease.


     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2022
    pphdam, maf and AlainK like this.
  14. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,698
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    Location:
    nr Orléans, France (E.U.)
    Pierre has got a point there.
    I was about to take a photo yesterday of several "black lines" on healthy trees. They are all below small wounds like the scars left by small branches that have died out, or a branch that I pruned. When the tree grows, they disappear.
    The wound on number 3 should maybe be refreshed and copper sulfate applied to avoid further trouble.
     
    pphdam and opusoculi like this.
  15. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    Bordeaux sous-west of France
    What you are saying now is right.
     
    pphdam and AlainK like this.
  16. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    @opusoculi, thank you for the reply. Sorry for the delay to get back, your explanation makes sense, I do hope the black things are caused by either dead cambium or sunburn but not verticillium. I am going to upload a few more photos of the tree for you or anyone to have a closer look, thanks.
     
  17. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    A few more photos of the tree Inaba Shidare (photo 3 in my first post)
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    16,011
    Likes Received:
    13,529
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    What other signs and symptoms have you had with this maple P ? Has that branch lost its leaves, wilted or no leaves at all, but the other side of the tree has leaves ??
    You do have natural aging on the limbs, but the deep black markings can be a sign of Verticulum or Pseudomonas. The latter can be treated with copper fungacide, ie Bordeaux mix

    I agree with Pierre's thoughts on attack due to wounds etc. But I'm still of the opinion of Verticulum, but I would like to know about signs throughout the Summer above those dark black markings. ie wilting or premature leaf drop.
     
    pphdam likes this.
  19. opusoculi

    opusoculi Rising Contributor 10 Years

    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    Bordeaux sous-west of France
    I don't watch pictures on a phone.
    Look at that zoomed detail: do you still think it is black spots ?
    Pseudonomas black spots are never circumscribed as they are here.

    Blackening is not first symptomatic of Verticillium, blackening can occurs after weeks or month later after a Verticillium attack.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
    pphdam, emery and maf like this.
  20. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    The tree was healthy, and its leaves are not wilted at all, please see the photos in post 5 above. Not sure when trunks got blacken but I am sure the black marks were not there early this spring. I will treat them with Bordeaux mix.
     
  21. pphdam

    pphdam Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    England
    I am not sure what they are, but look like black spots or marks to me. By the way those black spots or marks are only in the lower part of the limbs.

    I remember one of my two Hana Matoi had similar black marks in last spring and then it died.
     
  22. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    16,011
    Likes Received:
    13,529
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    I think that's all you can do ATM and watch and wait
     
    pphdam likes this.

Share This Page