Best Red for N Texas ?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by thebronze, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Orangeola
    Crimson Queen
    Tamukeyama

    I'd like a red lace leaf I can put on the front side of my house.
    The spot is almost directly under the porch awning but it will probably get 2-3 hours of direct sun a day between 2-4pm as the sun sets between the houses.
    Will be completely shaded the rest of the time from the awning and
    next door neighbors house. I've got a seiryu, 2 viridis, and a waterfall
    that are doing fine in similar spots. Any thoughts? Anyone else in DFW area?
    I'm in Lake Dallas, just south of Denton.
     
  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I doubt you will see the Maple stay red for long
    and then it will turn green and stay that way until
    the Fall. 2-3 hours of mid afternoon sun will not
    be enough to keep a red dissectum red in color
    after its Spring showing. If the Maple is going to
    go from red to green anyway then get an Ornatum.
    Of your three choices then I'd go with an Orangeola.

    Jim
     
  3. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I agree with mr shep about bronzing/greening. Red filigree lace
    should be considered because 1) extremely finely dissected
    2) will take hot mid afternoon sun with little burning 3)lovely
    "mushroom" shape. It is slow growing.
     
  4. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    Thanks for the reply.
    I'm not quite as concerned with it staying red as with it staying healthy.
    Depending on where I plant it, it could see anywhere from 2-6 hours of direct afternoon sun.
    I guess I should be asking which of the 3 can take the most sun in a southern climate.
    I'm 60 miles from Okalahoma and 30 miles N of Dallas. I think i'm in zone 7b. Its not that humid here but pretty consistantly hot and dry from May to September.
     
  5. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I have all 4 cultivars mentioned and my locale is always 80-100+
    degrees in summer and my experience says Red Filigree Lace.
    Good luck.
     
  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    This below is not a put down to you as I will
    not do that but since no one likes my posts
    in these forums anyway, there is no need to
    pooh-pooh this subject herein and let it fester
    any longer. I am sorry but I cannot allow it
    to happen.

    Which form of Red Filigree Lace do you have
    the black-red or the red-red? I had my plant for
    18 years, how long have you had yours and which
    nursery did it originate from? The reason for the
    latter part of the question is that the black-red
    form can handle morning to mid day sun in a
    wind protected location but cannot tolerate mid
    to late afternoon sun in temperatures right at
    100 degrees and more. The red-red form which
    at one time was sold as Ruby Lace by an Oregon
    nursery, originated as a seedling from a nearby
    Oregon nursery and is not the same Ruby Lace
    that came to William Goddard in Canada from
    Oregon years previous, can handle heat and hot
    winds much better than the black-red form can.
    The red-red form is a much cleaner Maple than
    Red Filigree Lace will ever be. If you've ever
    seen 200 five gallon plants all dying from quick
    decline Verticillium right before your eyes in a
    Northern California nursery back in the late 80's
    that came in from Oregon less than a month earlier,
    then you would be real hesitant to recommend the
    black-red form of Red Filigree Lace to anyone.

    Ornatum can handle the warmer temperatures better
    than Crimson Queen and Tamukeyama can. I grew
    my Orangeola, now planted in a private garden, facing
    directly West, right into the hottest part of sun of the
    day. It was not the heat that would chew up this Maple
    it was the hot winds. Ornatum, true form, can handle
    the hot winds better than Orangeola and only have the
    tips of the lobes become crispy whereas the Orangeola
    can have more burning on the outer edges of the lobes
    but not have the overall scorch that a Crimson Queen
    or a Tamukeyama will get. Both Crimson Queen and
    Tamukeyama will do great when given morning to
    early mid day sun in a wind protected location.

    Jim
     
  7. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Jim, I like your posts!
    They are often passionate and on fire.
     
  8. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Jim, thanks for the history. I have the red-red. 1 of my
    red-red's is 10+ years old. Breaks my heart to imagine
    watching those maples die in a group from wilt.
     
  9. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    A gentle reminder: the focus of these forums is plants. Statements like this one shift the focus, however slightly, to be about the personality of the people who post about plants.

    In my opinion, people will visit and revisit and participate and question on these forums if a) they feel it somehow benefits them and b) they feel welcome to participate. Feel free to disagree with me, but I suspect they will find the forums more valuable and of benefit to them if the focus remains as I (and my employers) believe it should be (i.e., about plants) instead of a discussion about whether other community members in the forums do or do not conform to a sweeping statement that cannot ultimately be proven or disproven.
     
  10. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

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    Chill Daniel...that's just Jim. We all have certain idiosyncracies, that's what makes us who we are. By the way many leaves on my Quercus myrsinifolia are serrated halfway or more.
    I would go with a 'Tamuke yama' if a large plant, 12' or better, is okay. 'Orangeola' for a more compact plant with much finer texture. If you did want good red color retention look for a 'Red Dragon'
     
  11. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Breaks my heart to imagine watching those
    maples die in a group from wilt.


    We all took seeing those plants like that
    personal.

    From my vantage point I can always leave
    the forums. I am not seeing any real attempt
    to have intellectual discussions anyway. The
    people that claim to know Maples never write
    and I keep asking myself what are they afraid
    of? If they know their subject well they should
    not hesitate to write. So what if we are wrong
    in what we know every now and then. We
    don't learn anything if we are right all of the
    time. We learn much more when we are wrong
    but many people's egos cannot stand the notion
    of ever being wrong, worse yet when it is proved
    to them they are wrong.

    On my side of the fence I am saying, do you
    guys want to learn Maples or not as there
    seems to be no current day mentors for these
    plants. Buddies patting each other on the
    back, telling them how great they are, will
    not cut it with me or the people that were
    mentors to me in Maples. People that have
    grown Maples and have some acquired
    knowledge about them from area to area,
    know some of their responses to cultural
    conditions which are areas that the book
    authors with several cultivar Maples just
    do not know yet.

    What I tell you guys whether it is in Maples,
    Conifers, Magnolias or Fruit Trees is not
    anything new. Others know this stuff and
    other people years ago even in the UBC
    Botanical Garden knew some of the Conifer
    contorta stuff I recently wrote about. Ask
    them sometime!

    Sometimes in order to get people's attention
    we have act in a way other than what we would
    normally be for people to read rather than pass
    over the information and in a month of two
    make us go over it all again. Also, in various
    posts in this Maple forum I am stepping on
    toes with some of my comments. The book
    authors do not have much for knowledge of
    some of these plants as much of their knowledge
    was passed from word of mouth to them and
    they know even less of the history of many of
    the Maples we take for granted. Who else
    can tell you people and who else will offer
    some enlightenment on some of these Maple
    cultivars and add in some of their history?
    You guys have not done it.

    See you guys. Thanks Brad, love you too.
    Talk with you later.

    Jim
     
  12. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    People sharing opinions and beliefs about plant cultivation and propagation is not an intellectual discussion?
     
  13. Wanda4

    Wanda4 Member

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  14. We have a Crimson Queen in zone 8 (South Carolina) and it does pretty well. It fades to green in late July, early August. It recieved dappled light off and on all day.
     
  15. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    Location:
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    Thank you all for the suggestions.
    I ended up getting one gal orangeola, inaba, and shantung from Metro Maples.
    Both the laceleafs were highly recommended for heat tolerance and hardiness.
    They are currently in my training area where they receive full sun until noon and seem to be thriving. I'll try to take some pics tonight and post.
     
  16. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Inabe shidare is a very nice maple, but it will by far be the least sun-tolerant of the two. Plant the Orangeola in the sunnier location.

    MJH
     
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I just took a peek after a few days of not
    looking at all in these forums and saw
    that my comments were still posted. I
    thought sure they would be deleted and
    the whole tirade edited to the first comment.
    It should have been. No matter how much
    perceived truth there may or may not be,
    inferred or otherwise, that kind of outburst
    has no place in these forums and never
    should be encouraged. It is insidious to
    think that I am writing on behalf of others
    when they can make their feelings known by
    themselves. I was dead wrong to write what
    I did in the manner in which it was done and
    for that I am not feeling anything positive
    should come about from that said tirade, even
    if it does lead to more active participation
    in these forums from others. I agree what
    was done is not plant related material and
    should not be allowed to stay as is. It serves
    no valid purpose other than a blatant attempt
    to express frustration in an underhanded way
    on the part of the poster and for that I apologize
    to all of you.

    Jim
     
  18. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Jim, please keep educating me. I come to this forum to learn and be
    of service and I am never disappointed. Our beautiful maples are not
    the only wonderful "people" in our lives. Thank you for those powerful
    and wise words.
     
  19. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Jim,
    You are a very important member of this community!
    I love to call my wife in and show her you post that scroll for several pages. Yes your responses are verbose and often go to the emotional side of things, but it is only your passion for the plants that brings it out. There is alot of history with plants especially maples (Alot of which i would never know except for your posts.) I can handle the passion as long as it contains useful information about the plants, and your post do.

    I am new to this hobby. Reading books such as 'Japanese Maples' have taught me alot. But there is alot left out on the editing floor when these books are written. That is why these kind of forums are great. They allow us to devle deeper into the subjects than a simple paragraph can. You and others on this forum bring numerous years of experience which i love to try and get from you. Your mentioning the red-black vs red-red earlier in this post was a little blunt, but that is the way you try to get a point across. There was a point there, something i would never have known if you hadnt mentioned it. I was out in the yard examining mine right after that. That kind of information is priceless, and worth trying to read thru your post. If you were being malicous, that would be a different story. Daniel has helped to create this wonderful enviroment for us to share knowledge, and wants to try and keep that up. I would take his comments as constructive advice on how to conduct this forum, nothing more. We all must remember words on a post can be often misinterpeted out of context, and as such we should try and make clear our points so that others can understand ours.

    Thanks Again
    to Jim, Daniel, and everybody else participating in this forum

    Mike
     
  20. carbluesnake

    carbluesnake Active Member

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    Elmore is right regarding the Red Dragon. I live between Houston and Dallas, and I find the Red Dragon retains its red color far better than Crimson Queen or Garnet. My Red Dragon is in a shady spot with a high overstory of Post oak. I have yet to see any burn. I know that is different from where you want to plant yours though.
     
  21. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    I had my mind set on a red dragon, but the guy at metro maples sold me on an Inaba Shidare. I think his point was that it was a faster grower and more upright. I'm somewhat sorry now. It seems to be bronzing out and has alot of tip burn. It is too soon to pull the plug so I will give it some time and see how it fairs now that fall is almost here. If its doing poor in the spring I will probably exchange it for a dragon.

    On the other hand, the orangeola could not be doing better. Almost no leaf burn at all and has sprouted new leaves. Seems oblivious to the heat and sun.

    Off topic - I have a large waterfall I picked up at a calloway's clearance that is really struggling along. If anyone in the N Texas area is interested in trading for it drop me a line. I dont want to kill the poor thing. Its currently in limbo on my back porch in a shady spot. Its probably 4-5' tall and the trunk is 1-2". I think it was $30 but i'd like to see it get a good home so i'm not concerned with offers.
    Thanks,
    Toby
     
  22. swanny

    swanny Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have attached two photos of a Inaba Shidare and a Red Dragon, the Inaba Shidare is one year older and is in full sun while the Red Dragon is in dappled shade. As is apparent by the photos, the Inaba Shidare is probably 3-4 times as large and while it does bronze out in Summer it has a nice red color in Spring and Fall. The Red Dragon, even in the shade retains its red color and has never bronzed out. But, boy, talk about slow growth!!!! this tree has probable grown less than a foot in 5 years. The canopy has spread but it is about the same height as when acquired. Red Dragon photo was taken yesterday, Inaba Shidare last Fall.

    Swanny
     

    Attached Files:

  23. swanny

    swanny Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Correction, The Inaba Shidare is on the left and the picture was taken last Spring.
     
  24. Whit

    Whit Member

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    Go to Metromaples.com which is in Fort Worth cause they're about to release a Shantung Maple 'Fire Dragon' for Fall 2005 which is a bright cardinal red in the fall. Fire Dragon also has a nice leaf pattern, different from the typical Shantung. It was a seedling discovered in Arlington, and thrives in North Texas.
     
  25. thebronze

    thebronze Member

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    I cant fit another 30' tree in my yard.
    I already have 2 shantungs and they are excellent tree's.
    I'd love to see one though so maybe i'll make another trip.
    Metromaples should charge admission.
     

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