Can anyone ID these plants. The first 2 pics are of an Alocasia, I think and the second 2 of an Anthurium. The spadex (??) of the Anthurium is dark purple if that helps Thanks :) Ed
You're right on the genus on both. Now to figure out the species. I've got the same Alocasia in my atrium. But I've never been able to find an ID. I've got a message out to Pete Boyce who is the world's top Alocasia expert just trying to locate him! Pete lives in Singapore and I think he's en route to Miami for the Aroid Show, or at least I hope is on the way! I sent a message to some folks in Miami who should know so if I can track him down before someone else ID's the specimen, maybe we both will have an answer. The Anthurium is a member of section Pachyneurium. That section contains the "birds nest" forms. Birds nest Anthuriums are known as "trash can" plants. They sometimes grow as terrestrial plants but just as often grow as epiphytes up in the tree branches. Many can grow to be enormous and they catch falling debris (leaves and dead vegetation) and use that as a food source. They are actually creating their own source of fertilizer. The other purpose of catching the debris is to have a constant source of moisture around their roots if they are growing up in the canopy. Unlike plants whose roots can capture moisture from the soil, the epiphytes depend solely on the rain. But all that "trash" around their leaves holds moisture as well. There are a few Anthurium specimens in that section which are known to have ruffled edges so that will the best place to start. A big clue will be the color of the seed berries. Have you actually seen berries form on that or a previous spadix? If we know the color of the berries there is a key in one of Dr. Tom Croat's journals that will help to "key" out the plant. One major problem with aroids is their variability. You simply cannot determine a species solely by the shape of a leaf. These species have many variations, so many they have confused botanists for well over 100 years. Most people have difficulty accepting the fact you can't just look at a leaf and say "that is a.........". Doesn't work that way with aroids, especially Anthurium and Philodendron species. We have to use much finer details such as the shape of the inflorescence (spathe) and the color of the seed berries along with the cross sectional shape of the petiole. Determining an Anthurium species can be quite a journey! If you've got a leaf about to die, cut it off and examine the cross-section shape of the petiole. It should be round, shaped like a capital "D", or even another geometric shape (roughly). That also helps key out the species. If you have a photo of the spathe, that will be of great help. I'll work on it!!
OK I'll keep an eye out for the shape of the inflorescence (theres one in the photo, if thats what your talking about but that is an old one) I should be getting new ones soon. The Alocasia spathe (pic #2) was not quite open and I took that photo on Sunday so I will have a look this afternoon. When you talk about the inflorescence/spathe, do you mean the berries or small flowers that form on this? Like pic #2 and #4. That Anthurium is in 70% full sun. I placed it there as an experiment, I have another in vitually filtered light all day. Both plants seem to have more than one plant in the cluster. Are they easy to seperate or should I just leave them? Ed
70% light is fine for most of these species. The inflorescence is composed of several parts. You'll see a spathe, spadix, and peduncle. The peduncle supports the inflorescence. The length of the peduncle can be helpful. The spathe itself, which many would call a "flower", is important. That spathe is simply a modified leaf. But the shape and color of the spathe can be useful in keying this out.. Some spathes are lanceolate (spear shaped) and some are more conical. Some grow upwards and some hang pendantly. All of those features are helpful. The male and female flowers are very tiny. You'll need a good magnifying glass to see them. If there is a spathe in the Anthurium photo it is dried and I can't make it out. When you get a new spadix watch for berries. Some species will voluntarily produce fertile berries without pollination. But that is not common. If you have insects that climb on the spadix seeking the pheromone it produces, you may accidentally get pollination as well. the berry color is very important.
OK Steve....the spadix in pic#4 was dark purple, the flash doesn't show that, I will measure it this afternoon but again, it is an old one. Are Anthuriums easy to seperate or should I just leave together?? Ed
If you have multiple plants, they can be divided. Just cut the newest one away from the parent. Should be relatively easy to divide. The color of the spadix is also a clue, so just keep adding the clues together. The color of the berries is a biggie, as is the shape of the spathe. So watch for a new infloresence and photograph it as it develops. It is beginning to appear to possibly be Anthurium plowmanii, but it way too early to declare that to be the species.
The reason for the hesitation on the dividing front is that both plants are nearly the same size!! Pic #3 is one little cluster of them although it is very hard to tell. It took me about a week to realise that they were 2 plants. Thanks for the tip on the photographing the development of the spadix. The more I learn about aroids the harder I realise they are to ID!! Ed
Right now I have 12 aroid specimens on my desktop I am trying to ID. Dr. Croat and Julius Boos finally beat it into my head that a single photo is worth only a good guess. It takes far more documentation to be certain. So now, I try to gather a lot of documentation before asking the "big guns" to identify a specimen. I can only see one specimen in your photo #3 but you may well be right. That specimen makes a near perfect "birds nest" form. However, I have tried with success upon a few occasions to cut down beneath one of the leaves and gather a good chuck of the base of the Anthurium with roots attached in order to begin a new plant. That has worked in the past. So it may work for you as well. It is not uncommon for a specimen to begin a totally new plant alongside the base of the larger specimen. Those are much more easily removed. Just be sure and remove a chunk of the base that has roots attached. I believe that all the variables aroids present, along with the multitude of forms, is what turns collectors into "nut cases" like me. There are now over 800 known species and Dr. Croat believes there are at least that may more still in the rain forest undetected. The majority of the "unknowns" appear to be in Colombia and Ecuador. He's in Ecuador right now trying to reduce the number of "unknowns". Frankly, I find that amazing. Tom is 69 years old and takes off through the jungle like a 20 year old! He's one amazing man.
I have the exact same Anthurium, edleigh. The young spathes are lanceolate, with a hint of purple but paler than the spadix. This goes away as the inflorescence matures. The new spadices are almost black, they're so purple. Think about black grapes - that colour. I'm not sure if mine are fruiting yet, or just getting ready; I have spadices in varying stages of maturity and when I've got the time I'll photo them all and post them here to add to the data for ID's. Do yours smell faintly of skunk at night?
And, as promised, here are some photos. 1-3 are spadices in varying degrees of maturity (from youngest to oldest) 4 is a new spathe, before it loses the purple blush 5 is a closeup of the petioles 6-7 are the whole plant. HTH!
Yes lorax...that appears to be the same. the only difference is that the colour of the spadix yours looks more blue/purple whereas mine looks black/purple. Maybe it is the light in the camare or something, although your description sounds spot on!! Hopefully I will be getting some new spadix's soon so I can track the progress!! Ed
The shape of the spathe, spadix, and base of the plant are a close match to Anthurium schlechtendalii. A couple of bits of information could help us include or exclude that species. Can one of you measure the peduncle? The peduncle is the support portion beneath the spadix. Measure both the peduncle alone and the entire length including the spadix. Actually, Lorax, your plant is a better candidate for the measurements since you have a complete spadix. The color purple of the spadix helps but does not exclude enough species. About 1/2 the entire section has purple or deep purple spadices. Also, if at all possible, cut a leaf that is about to die and tell me the shape of the cross section of the petiole. If it is round, I think that will exclude A. schlechtendalii. It should be either trapezoidal or in extreme cases can be "D" shaped. The color of the fruit will be a final determining factor. If they are red, we'll be a lot closer. Although the leaf shape was good for A. plowmanii, the spadices do not match any of Dr. Croat's key photos. Anthurium schlechtendalii is from Mexico and is known to be extremely variable and takes on many leaf shapes. In fully mature specimens the leaves can grow to almost 2 meters in length. We may be getting closer, but I'm not ready to make a declaration as to the species from my end yet! But personally, I get a kick out of trying to figure these things out!
Yes...me too Steve, I will measure when it stops raining ( not that I'm complaining we need it) and cut a leaf also, may be a couple of days though... Steve...re aroid L, I'm not being a snob, there is just an avalanche of information for me to absorb and I'm a bit behind the 8 ball at the moment Ed
Aroid l first, there is always a ton of info on there. I normally save and use the ones that fit my interests. You've likely noticed a lot of people who are Amorphophallus crazy. I like them, I'm not nuts about them. I just read things that are interesting to me and then pass on down to the notes that truly interest me.......Anthurium species and Philodendron species. But sometimes I love to read about the Alocasia sp. as well. So use what you need and delete the rest. Now, I'm attaching a photo of a recent spathe and spadix. Dr. Croat confirmed (in person) this is A. schlechtendalii. But be aware......... the spathe formed aiming upwards rather than pendantly. Within days it was hanging downwards. But I think you'll find the general shape very similar to both your plants. I've never seen a spathe form upwards before or since. Just curious, do your new leaves develop with an extreme shine that soon fades?
From memory the new leaves are glossy, however I can't recall if the spathe droops downwards after a couple of days, I thought they stayed upright. I may have to wait until a new one forms so I can observe and record. I am just going off memory from just casual observations, next time I can observe with new vigour! Ed
Although the tone of the spadix color can be of importance, the shape of the spathe and spadix is of greater value. So far, it appears the spathes of your plants match A. schlechtendalii. A peduncle length of 10 to 54cm (depending on the age of the plant) and and a petiole that is trapezoidal to sub-quadrangular (possibly D shaped) is more important. And the ultimate clue will be the color of the berries. Although there are numerous species with red berries, the more clues we can match the better the chance of a positive ID. The major obstacle to an absolute ID is the fact Anthurium schlechtendalii is known to be so variable in leaf shape. I just reread Dr. Croat's complete scientific description of the species and Anthurium schlechtendalii is most commonly found as a terrestrial species, only occasionally growing as an epiphyte. But it appears we are closer to figuring out what you are growing. It took me close to 8 years to figure out the identity of my specimen! It simply had too many variables including a very odd leaf shape.
Okay, here's some measurements... Peduncles: the youngest is 24cm, middle is 41cm, and oldest is 27cm Spadices: the youngest is 14cm, middle is 23cm, and oldest is 24cm Spathe: only the middle one was straight enough to measure, 19cm Leaves: 96-100cm long, 20-22cm wide. Oh, petioles are a vague D-shape with an upward spine along the bar of the D (slightly trapezoidal final profile) Sorry it took till today, my pitahayas are blooming.
Your measurements appear to fit the norm for Anthurium schlechtendalii as does the cross section. The "D" shape is less common but certainly fits the species. I believe, although I'll have to verify this in my notes, the peduncle should always be longer than the spadix. Do you have any idea where this specimen originated?
Possible, but that would be strange. If this is Anthurium schlechtendalii, and it appears to be, that species is from southern Mexico. More likely someone brought it into the country in seed form.
Very little on my land (other than the Ontario corkscrew willows) is from further away than the north of the country. It is possible, though, since Anthuriums and other aroids are so super popular down here as garden plants. The laundry I go to has something like 60 different species in the front yard.
Daniel, if you catch this can you comment please? I've been corresponding with a Mexican grower of this plant. He has photos of the spadix with seed berries and wanted to post them but received a message he had to be "in the forum" for two days before he could post the photos. Since I've seen new contributors post photos with their first post, can you clarify this for us? He is using the screen name "Sigtris". The gentleman has an incredible garden that makes mine look insignificant. I believe his contribution can be of value. And Lorax, I think I need to visit your laundry! Thanks!
The only way that I can see the message coming up about being a member of the forum for two days is if he was trying to post an attachment that exceeded the size of attachments that new members are allowed to post. Anyway, I've bumped him up one user level, so all should work now from this end.
